Zelensky is the strongest man in the world to be able to hold himself back from attacking these ass holes.
I mean, it would have certainly resulted in him being shot on the spot. The Secret Service would shoot anyone .
If you want to see the full video, including the parts before the discussion gets hot, here’s the full video.
Watched it, my takes: Trump is definitly the lets make an offer he can’t refuse type of negociator. I am thinking that the last week’s visits have been hard on their ego. I suspect there is an agreement between european leaders to not let them get away with lies and bullshit when in person, even in the oval office. And it seems to be working, Vance respect comment make them look real fricking weak.
The “respect” and “you should be thankful” comments reminded me of that old (I think Tumblr) post:
Sometimes people use “respect” to mean “treating someone like a person” and sometimes they use “respect” to mean “treating someone like an authority”.
and sometimes people who are used to being treated like an authority say “if you won’t respect me, I won’t respect you” and they mean “if you won’t treat me like an authority, I won’t treat you like a person.”
and they think they’re being fair, but they aren’t, and it’s not okay.
The respect comment took me back to his donut comments. The couchfucker is a charisma void.
Fuck the MAGA US. Kick them out of NATO, and let’s arm Europe. Between France and the UK we are a nuclear power of our own.
I’m amazed Zelensky doesn’t stand up and slap the both of them across their faces holyyyyyyy
The whole thing felt like an embodiment of this meme:
Starmer’s visit was pointless Zelensky’s visit was pointless
stop trying to appeal to the better nature of monsters.
Close the book on US/EU relations, NATO is dead. America is controlled by the Russian Mafia now.
Europe, prepare for war. America, prepare for the dominion of Fasicsm, and civil war
Not necessarily monsters (actually yeah they are), but he has a 40 year history of being compromised and owned by Soviet and Russian oligarchs. I’m reading “American Kompromat” now and it couldn’t be clearer. It’s not even hidden or anything. The Russians really just, won the Cold War. They did it, they toppled the US. Good job for them.
The reasons for which the US was able to turn fascist are all homegrown. We don’t need to resort to blaming foreigners for the rise of fascism - which is the only logical conclusion to a country that was founded on genocide and colonialism under the sole guidance of white slavers. This is peak American exceptionalism.
Social safety nets, wages, childcare, healthcare, mental health, working hours, etc… have all been crumbling for some time now. The fact that our adversaries picked up on this and exploited it by no means absolves Americans of their turn towards fascism.
If, at the end of these 4 years when democracy has been truly and completely demolished, the only lesson you’ve learned is “damn russian spies destroyed america!” You haven’t learned your lesson, and you’re honestly spitting in the face of all the victims of US policy both domestic and abroad.
I think it’s fair to say Russia exacerbated our existing issues. That doesn’t absolve us, as you point out, but it’s not unreasonable to say “Russia won”, either.
We had every opportunity to fix our issues. But nope, we just never really dealt with our history of racism and all the other bigotries (and capitalism, let’s be real). When we tried to make things better, the reactionaries pushed back. First with war, and when that was lost, with law, and when that was lost, with rewriting history. That is a strategy that keeps working. Turns out if you don’t care for your citizens, they’ll eat up all that fake history looking for someone to blame. And that makes us weak to fascism.
So yeah, Russia may have sped up the process, but the roots of our downfall were here all along.
The core of the issues were fully American. However, USSR/Russia has worked very long and hard to pour nitroglycerin and gasoline on these issues for their own benefit, such as expanding territory, capturing/killing US and NATO spies, etc. all thanks to their little pet in the white house now. I mean in the 30s the same fascist/capitalist leadership tried another coup it just didn’t work (where George H.W. Bush’s father was involved, of course). In the 80s they hollowed out our support system even more, and it’s only declined from there.
It’s clear you don’t know who I am or what I know, of course, but you’re reading into my comment way too much.
The Russian Mafia won the war,
the nation itself is fucked. regardless of what happens. they’ve been doomed for a while.
If your definition of the Russian Mafia includes, the Kremlin, then yes. Putin and co are absolutely gangster scum that work hand in hand with the actual mafia and international criminal organizations. Sure the actual people of Russia are fucked (just as with any country of a dictator).
the russian federation is just a medieval imperial entity masquerading as a federated state. And its society is just a totem pole of people getting used as assets and cattle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJgr-0t-RPc this more describes the political totem pole within the country,
but demographically, the country is a totem pole too. Moscow and St Petersburg rule the rest of the country like bandit kings.
How is NATO dead, just because the US is no longer reliable the rest of the countries can still respond
NATO was a tool of American influence. Just as the Warsaw pact was a tool of Russian influence.
The trans-atlantic partnership is over. NATO is obsolete, a successor is needed. America has checked out,
I wasn’t convinced at first that NATO is dead on Trump’s first term. But here we are and it is a long time coming.
Some analysts think that the unipolar world is over, and that we’re heading into a multipolar world again but dominated by regional blocs. The EU is definitely there, and sometime later the African Union will become more cohesive and globally influential. But I don’t see Latin America having as strong regional grouping as the EU. In Asia, we can forget it because Asians tend to be insular. There is ASEAN but they do not have the same solidarity as the EU.
Nato is not dead just because the US leaves it. The EU wasn’t dead either after the UK left.
the US and Hungary have no reason to officially leave NATO because they can sabotage it from within and use it to blackmail and steer Europe into the position they want, being puppets of Russia and US.
the last thing America wants is a detatched Europe that isnt allied with them, they see independent Europe as a hostile entity, they are only interested in Europe being vassal states.
For one why limit it to the North Atlantic? Japan, South Korea, and Australia should get in on the action too. And France and the UK can help them all get nukes (yes I mean that seriously - US and Russia being the only large nuclear powers is a disaster). Now would be a great time for the stable democracies (not the US) to create a new alliance.
Imagine being Zelensky and having to fly some some rando country to beg for help from a Nazi asshole to end the invasion from another Nazi asshole. And if you were to die, one of the two assholes would win?
Zelensky, if you need my help personally, just ask. I have a wheelbarrow so we can carry your balls. Trump would love it if his genitalia could weigh down a party balloon.
fuck you america for voting for this fascist scumbag. nobody should trust you again.
They basically handed one of the strongest countries in the world to a very typical college bully and his lackies.
I’m an American and I’m upvoting this. After 2016, I thought that there were some misguided people who didn’t realize what they were doing, but that the first Trump term would push the pendulum hard the other direction. I felt a little validated when Biden won in 2020, but it wasn’t as one sided as I’d hoped. But Trump winning decisively in 2024 tells me that everyone knew and did it anyway. People are getting what they want: rampant racism, sexism, and global bullying.
So yes, we suck, and no one should trust us as a country, regardless of the fact that there are many of us who knew how catastrophic another Trump term would be.
I don’t think Trump won quite as decisively as it first seemed.
But shit, it’s still like… a third of our country that looked at Trump and went, “yeah sure”.
How the fuck do we fix this? I straight up have no clue. And that means it very likely will devolve into violence. And that is legitimately terrifying.
Almost nobody using Lemmy voted for him.
its better to move on and forget about them, because they made it very clear over the last 10 years these types of people absolutley do not give a fuck about anyone elses opinion, and would much rather kill anyone who gets in their way.
Yeah.
Yeah…
Most of us want the shithead gone just as bad as you do, but too many dumbshits decided they’d rather not stop him because the alternative wasn’t perfect. I hate it here.
Most? He already was president and over 50% voted that guy into office again? How are most people against him?
He didn’t get 50% of the vote.
He won be cause either 6 million people didn’t vote or, to quote Trump, “[Elon] knows those computers better than anybody. All those computers. Those vote-counting computers. And we ended up winning Pennsylvania like in a landslide.”
A surprisingly large number of people don’t vote. I refuse to believe that anything approaching half of voting-age Americans support this. Unfortunately, here we are.
Everyone who didn’t vote supports this.
If as many people who turned up to vote would turn up to protest, things would change. Alas, liberals who think filling out the ballot is enough democracy for 4 years are not friends of democracy.
And even more didn’t vote in 2024 than 2020- and most of those who didn’t vote this time would have otherwise voted against Trump. 50% of US votes is far far less than 50% of people eligible to vote in the US.
50% of the people that voted in the last election voted for him. Some people didn’t vote, so about 33% of those that could vote voted for him. Since the election, his approval ratings dropped about 15-20%, so about 25% of those able to vote still support him.
Further, it’s 50% of the people in the swing states that really decide things. I’m sure most New Yorkers and Californians that didn’t vote did so because they knew their state would go blue regardless.
Yep. The rule of thumb is that if you were in a swing state, your vote counted for about 5-6 votes because of the way the electoral college works.
"They didn’t know"TM
No, most of you either directly voted for him or didn’t care if he won.
Definitely not most.
most of you decided voting was too much of hassle
As an American. Agreed
Let’s remember that there good people there too. Let’s remember that these scumbags, whichever country they run, rely on our sweat, tears and blood to move forward with their decisions. While not all of us are good, obviously, I want to believe that many Americans were tricked by media to think Trump was a valid choice. What we need to understand it’s that this is a us people versus them rulers. If only we would understand this together and stop fighting each other…
The fact that a nation does fascist shit is never excused by the fact that there might be people who weren’t all bad. Or were even good.
Sincerely, A German.
rely on our sweat, tears and blood to move forward with their decisions
Agreed, so stop giving it to them. When I see Americans bring the country to a screeching halt through protest, disobedience, and strikes I will believe in the good people there.
“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”
I mean, that counts for Russia as well, but until recently you couldn’t say anything like this without getting attacked
Ah it’s time for Poland to raise a big stink about the next errant missile and invoke article 5 as the zerg rush red square
You do realize that article 5 does not mean that other countries have to join the war, right? They can choose to or they can choose not to. Even if they choose to get involved, it can be in form of economic support. And even if they choose to declare war, it can be in form of loud words. So I expect Poland would be on it’s own.
It means they have to under their treaty obligations. If they choose not to, they are in violation of the treaty and NATO is just over. If the Americans want to do this, they should forever be reminded that article 5 has been used only once before, by them, and the allies came to their aid no questions asked.
NATO is dead for all practical purposes. You think this trump asswipe is going to lift a finger if anything more serious happens in Europe?
Does anyone else have the feeling that Ukraine is safer with no deal?
This guy does (he was there too, sitting next to vance, btw)
I’m certain Dr Birx can recommend him a therapist who specializes in sold souls…
A man who, by the way, was fully supported by every single democratic senator.
He was supposed to be the “adult” in the room. They all fear Trump… For some reason, I don’t get it.
trump is a good punishment for power-hungry politician types, too bad that it is at everyone else’s expense.
Any deal with Trump is no deal at all. He’s the kind of guy that, if you give an inch, starts waving his hands around about how you stole 16 inches from him, and how you must be thrown in a hole somewhere.
Granting him anything is telling him that you are weak and ripe to be exploited.
Just like with any dictator deals are worthless. Putin broke the ceasefire and Trump is breaking trade deals.
Yeah, and the EU should immediately step up, and triplicate support for Ukraine.
We (Europe) already did most of the heavy lifting for Ukraine. The US mostly gave old stockpiles of weapons that they would’ve needed to destroy anyway. We are the ones actually paying cash to keep them afloat.
The problem is, in the post-WW2 order, our defense and our defense industry was made dependent on the USA by design. And even up until last November, Europe didn’t want to challenge this arrangement and just went full steam ahead with this arrangement, ordering US made weapons. I think Europe was in denial that Biden could lose or that NATO could ever end.
Only France, and to a limited extent, Sweden and Turkey, have independent defense industries.
In the future, we will have it again. And Ukraine will actually be a key player.
But in the short term, there is no magical button to press that can produce the arms.
Undoing decades of integration isn’t going to be easy.
Putin is going to make a hard move into the baltics during Trump’s first 2 years, including NATO countries. And Europe won’t be able to do shit about it. They need defenses now and European leadership needs to fast track it.
you talk as if Europe doesn’t have agency, or a military.
they do. they have gaps in their capability that have been created by the departure of US. and they no longer have the overwhelming advantage against Russia, but the thing is Russia will still get absolutely smoked.
the only thing that has changed, is it will be a far bloodier fight. Europe and America are both casualty averse. the prospect of things like Bucha Mariupol and Irpin happening in their cities, the population isnt ready for that.
(And to be clear, what happened in those towns and cities were a crime against humanity, after what Russia did there the Ukrainians understood very well this is a genocidal total war, its kill or be killed, and I dont think Europe has understood thats what its going to be.)
Maybe,just maybe, look up your world politics again.
- All baltic nations(except Russia) are NATO members
- All baltic nations (except Russia) are EU members and therefore covered by the Lisbon accords as well - which are much more far reaching than what NATO accords cover,btw.
So while the Baltics are in a shitty situation it’s not like Russia could attack a “non NATO” Baltic nation - as your “including” make it seem.
And currently there are 40.000 Soldiers of the ARF either deployed in the Baltics or ready to deployed within short notice - while the EU battlegroup is also available and gaining speed. The former is - for the first time - not sustained by US troops mainly,the later one of course never was. And as the ARF is a very British corps the UK has made it very clear that the ARF also operates under the British nuclear deterrence - so did France with both battlegroups.
Will that be enough to deter Putin? Who knows. Is it nothing? Definitely not - at the moment it would be, even without US support, enough to cause either the Ukrainian front or the “new front” (wherever that would be) to collapse fast.
Your narrative is either influenced by Russian misinformation or you are Russian misinformation - it is known that Russia tries to “it’s not worth it to even fight” narrative heavily into Europe and it has done so in Ukraine before.
Making a dumbass geography mistake proves I’m American, not Russian 😅
Anyway, I don’t think 40,000 is enough if the USA is aligned or even allied with Russia. Which you know, seems entirely possible given current events.
You just made all of the points that I was thinking about.
Triple*
Yes. USA already knows what its going to do. A hypothetical trade agreement isn’t going to change the decision, so Ukraine should make exactly zero concessions in pursuit of influencing a decision which has already been made.
Exactly, Trump already decided he was going to surrender. Zelensky knew he wasn’t going to get anything, but it was worth a shot I guess
They’re safer if they develop nuclear weapons on their own.
Libya and Ukraine convey the same warning to non NATO states. Have nukes or perish.
I’d suspect they’re safer with a deal… but they absolutely shouldn’t honor that deal.
They’re safer with a deal with guarantees, but Trump doesn’t want to give any, only take the profit. Otherwise it’s a choice between soldiers dying and soldiers dying with profit sharing.
All to play for . Join EU. Agree no NATO Putin fucks off.
America frozen.
Not sure how the US would react. Probably war.
They can sign a 50 year deal and stop payment 10 years from now, hopefully thing change for better then.
Congrats America, we’re the bad guys now.
A foreign democracy is sending an entire generation of their male populace into the afterlife to prevent Russia from expanding their borders and influence, which is bad for everyone including America, and our dumbfuck “leader” is trying to fleece them for everything he can in exchange for helping them with what amounts to chump change.
Such an embarrassing time to be an American. We’re transitioning into a much more dangerous world.
A foreign democracy is sending an entire generation of their male populace into the afterlife to prevent Russia from expanding their borders and influence
More to the point, to defend themselves. Ukraine isn’t playing some kind of geopolitical game; it’s trying to survive and has a huge moral high ground that your characterization of it disregards.
Did Trump and Vance think this embarrassing display made them look the better of the leaders?
Because it really didn’t.
Yea, looks like they used their leverage over Zelensky to lure him into a trap that turned out to be a verbal-WWE media stunt…
…turns out Zelensky is more articulate and mature than both of them combined…
And he a comedian, working in his second language .
I suppose it might go down well with some of his base who love the “macho” shit, but the rest of the world are looking on with disgust.
In some ways, this has probably worked out well for Ukraine, as it might focus minds in Europe. Though I do wish Zelenskyy had pointed out the $350bn in aid lie that Trump keeps spouting.
Though I do wish Zelenskyy had pointed out the $350bn in aid lie that Trump keeps spouting.
He would need to have been able to get a word in edgeways to do that. What should happen is that media reporting on it should point out that it’s a lie but most media organizations seem too busy gargling Trump’s balls these days for that.
Zelensky knows who he is dealing with: Putin.
They only act this way because of their followers and because they are in the US. They wouldn’t pull this shit in any other country.
Unfortunately to their cult it did. Such a strong and powerful man. They are literally coming down from an orgasmic high from what they witnessed.
I’m afraid MAGA does
I watched some of the transmission and all I can say is my respect to Zelensky grew tenfold with that exchange alone.
Having to interact with these two clowns and still keeping his cool (as much as he was able to) requires A LOT of patience and will. It was horrifyingly stupid in a train wreck kind of way.
Zelensky deserves every award there is for being able to keep his cool like that. I certainly wouldn’t have been able to.
Dude… I am saying this from the most unobjective place I can possibly manage. That was was of the most difficult and annoying things I’ve watched in a very long time. It honestly felt like watching a rational adult deal with his children complaining they can’t have a sleepover or something.
I am shocked that A) the White House wanted that embarrassment broadcast and B) zelensky actually remained remarkably calm.
Man what annoying people to talk with lol I’m trying so hard to see this from a different perspective but I can’t even fathom how that could be seen as anything other than rude and embarrassing.
“You haven’t even thanked us once” lmao
Man, don’t take a look at the conversations sub. They are all high fiving each other over this. For them it was a rush of masculinity and power live on TV. You’ve got folks saying that Vance never looked so good and how they want to name their first born over him.
I am shocked that A) the White House wanted that embarrassment broadcast
Trump thinks strength is measured by how many people you confront and bully and threaten. He is not smart enough to realize this isn’t how it looks to people outside his bubble of sycophants and MAGA dummies. Elon Musk clearly thinks the same way, and both Musk and Trump crave the respect they will never earn, so they double down on their idiot edgelord/bully methods. The White House media office will be headed by Trump sycophants, who will see this exchange through MAGA eyes. They see a strong man where everyone else sees a pathetic manchild.
Same here. I actively avoid watching Trump or his administration talk so seeing both him and Vance during this meeting was… exhausting to say the least. I can only imagine what was going through Zelensky’s head throughout the whole thing. His face sure said a lot.
It honestly felt like watching a rational adult deal with his children complaining they can’t have a sleepover or something.
Except the children’s behavior will also get a lot of people killed and possibly a whole nation enslaved.
Did i dreamed or did at some point he mentioned Hunter Biden’s dick? You wouldn’t believe a movie with such a plot.
Indeed. He’s in an awful situation and has no good options. With only Europe (both politically and militarily) it will be real hard for them. OTOH with a blackmailed ‘deal’ with orange they loose a big piece of resources without any guarantees not to loose the rest to Russia or to the orange in a deal extension. To get out of this situation without a major loss would be a miracle, but hey, I really hope they make it.
If we’re lucky this will be (another) kick for the European leaders to get serious about a possibility of US bailing out completely. Maybe. Hopefully. Please?
As an American I applaud Zelensky for not smacking the ever loving fuck out of those 2 bozos I wouldn’t have had the same restraint. You invite me to your house and tell me I should be thankful because you’re letting an aggressor fuck my country? Yea iight
I also would have slapped those 2. Fuck it.
