I’m sure Germany, France, or the UK would love to get the mineral rights that Trump is after.
I really want this to blow up in Trump’s face. Rude strongarm tactics is a real bad look.
I sure as hell hope we don’t make our support contingent on securing mineral rights from Ukraine while they’re over a barrel.
i need something to bring my blood pressure down. i am flushed with anger. make your own mirror of this if you download yt-dlp run from command line
yt-dlp https://youtu.be/uqOOOR7Kr-s
“this is gonna be great television, i’ll tell you that” - Donald Trump, 025/28/2, he tried to bully Ukrainian president Zelenskyy on live tv
edit should be noted the minerals in ukraine are presumed, theoretical, just what little i know, but this “deal” would allow more U.S. corruption and private interests to head over and start raping the land, looking for a jackpot.
Good job GOP. We lost the Cold War.
All these years after winning it. That’s some special war-fightin right there!
Zelensky is the strongest man in the world to be able to hold himself back from attacking these ass holes.
I think he should call Trump’s bluff and send in a few dozen battle hardened Ukrainian troops with a few dozen drones and show Trump’s entire nursing home and support staff how things work nowadays. We need to put together an anonymous block chain fund with the purpose of putting multi million bounties on the treason party, funded anonymously by small donors and build a reliable mechanism for people to anonymously, but truthfully claim the bounties. What our political contributions fail to do, crowd funding can do. All of the technology exists to make this happen, and it’s one of the main appeals of crypto currencies. Large scale anonymous transactions. If I find out there’s a billionaire Trump donating traitor or heritage foundation member near me, and I can get a basic Intel file and there’s a 500K bounty on them, then shit. They better hug their money goodnight one last time. Just send an email from a burner/anon account to a recipient with the time of death rough location and wallet address before any news is released. If all the details add up then release the funds to the wallet.
Make it worth while and let rule#3 take effect:
“Number three, never trust nobody Your moms’ll set that ass up, properly gassed up Hoodied and masked up, shit, for that fast buck She be laying in the bushes to light that ass up”
I mean, it would have certainly resulted in him being shot on the spot. The Secret Service would shoot anyone .
I wonder how long until the US is nuked? Or at least actually attacked, militarily.
US didn’t spent most of it’s money on army for nothing. Doesn’t matter if the army is as powerful as it says it is, the image is strong enough, so nobody will dare.
The only way it will crumble down is if they do “putin gambit”, really attack someone, fail spectacularly at it, expose inability to do shit, and get 50 square kilometres of baren wasteland for it.Or a civil war.
Man, I want this war over and the US out of it.
But watching our POTUS and VP behave that way on international TV. Even if you support their politics, it’s hard for me to understand how all of us are not embarrassed.
I also like that Zelensky didn’t just swallow the insults and spoke his piece, because the media is (of course) focusing solely on the preferred Trump narrative.
If you want to see the full video, including the parts before the discussion gets hot, here’s the full video.
Thanks.
The whole thing felt like an embodiment of this meme:
Fuck the MAGA US. Kick them out of NATO, and let’s arm Europe. Between France and the UK we are a nuclear power of our own.
Watched it, my takes: Trump is definitly the lets make an offer he can’t refuse type of negociator. I am thinking that the last week’s visits have been hard on their ego. I suspect there is an agreement between european leaders to not let them get away with lies and bullshit when in person, even in the oval office. And it seems to be working, Vance respect comment make them look real fricking weak.
The “respect” and “you should be thankful” comments reminded me of that old (I think Tumblr) post:
Sometimes people use “respect” to mean “treating someone like a person” and sometimes they use “respect” to mean “treating someone like an authority”.
and sometimes people who are used to being treated like an authority say “if you won’t respect me, I won’t respect you” and they mean “if you won’t treat me like an authority, I won’t treat you like a person.”
and they think they’re being fair, but they aren’t, and it’s not okay.
The respect comment took me back to his donut debacle. The couchfucker is a charisma void.
Starmer’s visit was pointless Zelensky’s visit was pointless
stop trying to appeal to the better nature of monsters.
Close the book on US/EU relations, NATO is dead. America is controlled by the Russian Mafia now.
Europe, prepare for war. America, prepare for the dominion of Fasicsm, and civil war
Before completely cutting off ties from the US showing the public attempts had been made for diplomacy and providing evidence of what a bad actor US has become is important.
Showing is way more impactful and supports moves made afterwards than just making claims and cutting ties.
So not completely pointless, since the public needs to be able to come to the conclusion themselves first before drastic foreign relation changes can be made.
Not necessarily monsters (actually yeah they are), but he has a 40 year history of being compromised and owned by Soviet and Russian oligarchs. I’m reading “American Kompromat” now and it couldn’t be clearer. It’s not even hidden or anything. The Russians really just, won the Cold War. They did it, they toppled the US. Good job for them.
The reasons for which the US was able to turn fascist are all homegrown. We don’t need to resort to blaming foreigners for the rise of fascism - which is the only logical conclusion to a country that was founded on genocide and colonialism under the sole guidance of white slavers. This is peak American exceptionalism.
Social safety nets, wages, childcare, healthcare, mental health, working hours, etc… have all been crumbling for some time now. The fact that our adversaries picked up on this and exploited it by no means absolves Americans of their turn towards fascism.
If, at the end of these 4 years when democracy has been truly and completely demolished, the only lesson you’ve learned is “damn russian spies destroyed america!” You haven’t learned your lesson, and you’re honestly spitting in the face of all the victims of US policy both domestic and abroad.
I think it’s fair to say Russia exacerbated our existing issues. That doesn’t absolve us, as you point out, but it’s not unreasonable to say “Russia won”, either.
We had every opportunity to fix our issues. But nope, we just never really dealt with our history of racism and all the other bigotries (and capitalism, let’s be real). When we tried to make things better, the reactionaries pushed back. First with war, and when that was lost, with law, and when that was lost, with rewriting history. That is a strategy that keeps working. Turns out if you don’t care for your citizens, they’ll eat up all that fake history looking for someone to blame. And that makes us weak to fascism.
So yeah, Russia may have sped up the process, but the roots of our downfall were here all along.
The core of the issues were fully American. However, USSR/Russia has worked very long and hard to pour nitroglycerin and gasoline on these issues for their own benefit, such as expanding territory, capturing/killing US and NATO spies, etc. all thanks to their little pet in the white house now. I mean in the 30s the same fascist/capitalist leadership tried another coup it just didn’t work (where George H.W. Bush’s father was involved, of course). In the 80s they hollowed out our support system even more, and it’s only declined from there.
It’s clear you don’t know who I am or what I know, of course, but you’re reading into my comment way too much.
The Russian Mafia won the war,
the nation itself is fucked. regardless of what happens. they’ve been doomed for a while.
If your definition of the Russian Mafia includes, the Kremlin, then yes. Putin and co are absolutely gangster scum that work hand in hand with the actual mafia and international criminal organizations. Sure the actual people of Russia are fucked (just as with any country of a dictator).
the russian federation is just a medieval imperial entity masquerading as a federated state. And its society is just a totem pole of people getting used as assets and cattle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJgr-0t-RPc this more describes the political totem pole within the country,
but demographically, the country is a totem pole too. Moscow and St Petersburg rule the rest of the country like bandit kings.
A united EU against today russia? Doubt will last weeks. But we are too afraid.
How is NATO dead, just because the US is no longer reliable the rest of the countries can still respond
NATO was a tool of American influence. Just as the Warsaw pact was a tool of Russian influence.
The trans-atlantic partnership is over. NATO is obsolete, a successor is needed. America has checked out,
NATO was that, but it may very well continue on as something else. Without the US mind you, but nothing says the rest of the NATO countries can’t just decide to stay in.
Of course it might also be a good time for them to all make the international equivalent of the No Homer’s Club. Either way.
Under Putin’s Sock Puppet, most certainly. However, the US MIC might hold the key to bring the USA back to being the USA.
I wasn’t convinced at first that NATO is dead on Trump’s first term. But here we are and it is a long time coming.
Some analysts think that the unipolar world is over, and that we’re heading into a multipolar world again but dominated by regional blocs. The EU is definitely there, and sometime later the African Union will become more cohesive and globally influential. But I don’t see Latin America having as strong regional grouping as the EU. In Asia, we can forget it because Asians tend to be insular. There is ASEAN but they do not have the same solidarity as the EU.
You forgot to mention China. Unless the EU gets its shit together and resists the same forces that are destroying the US, China is going to become that unipole.
Nato is not dead just because the US leaves it. The EU wasn’t dead either after the UK left.
the US and Hungary have no reason to officially leave NATO because they can sabotage it from within and use it to blackmail and steer Europe into the position they want, being puppets of Russia and US.
the last thing America wants is a detatched Europe that isnt allied with them, they see independent Europe as a hostile entity, they are only interested in Europe being vassal states.
France and the UK are more than capable of maintaining an article 5 nuclear umbrella. If that’s all NATO is worth, it’s still enough.
France is one election away from Marine Le Pen kissing the feet of Putin.
For one why limit it to the North Atlantic? Japan, South Korea, and Australia should get in on the action too. And France and the UK can help them all get nukes (yes I mean that seriously - US and Russia being the only large nuclear powers is a disaster). Now would be a great time for the stable democracies (not the US) to create a new alliance.
South Korea and particularly Japan doesn’t need help getting nukes. Japan in particular has never been afraid of showing an advanced space program(for icbm technology) and their immense plutonium stockpile. They could assemble ICBMs that could target anywhere in the world in a matter of weeks.
Yeah, but if they can do it that fast on their own, imagine how much faster they can get it done with help.
Besides, if China starts getting a little froggy Japan and South Korea are going to need a lot more than a few armaments to ward them off.
I’m amazed Zelensky doesn’t stand up and slap the both of them across their faces holyyyyyyy
Imagine being Zelensky and having to fly some some rando country to beg for help from a Nazi asshole to end the invasion from another Nazi asshole. And if you were to die, one of the two assholes would win?
Zelensky, if you need my help personally, just ask. I have a wheelbarrow so we can carry your balls. Trump would love it if his genitalia could weigh down a party balloon.
fuck you america for voting for this fascist scumbag. nobody should trust you again.
I’m an American and I’m upvoting this. After 2016, I thought that there were some misguided people who didn’t realize what they were doing, but that the first Trump term would push the pendulum hard the other direction. I felt a little validated when Biden won in 2020, but it wasn’t as one sided as I’d hoped. But Trump winning decisively in 2024 tells me that everyone knew and did it anyway. People are getting what they want: rampant racism, sexism, and global bullying.
So yes, we suck, and no one should trust us as a country, regardless of the fact that there are many of us who knew how catastrophic another Trump term would be.
I don’t think Trump won quite as decisively as it first seemed.
But shit, it’s still like… a third of our country that looked at Trump and went, “yeah sure”.
How the fuck do we fix this? I straight up have no clue. And that means it very likely will devolve into violence. And that is legitimately terrifying.
How the fuck do we fix this?
The primary issue is twofold:
- Heavily biased information and restrictive media diets
- Democrat Inaction
If you try viewing even a tiny amount of right leaning content on a fresh social media account on any platform, you’ll see the type of content that gets perpetuated. People simply become indoctrinated by content recommendations that are practically incapable of showing the other side, not to mention that most mainstream media is entirely corporately captured.
The fact that the Democrats were slow to release official policy for Harris’s campaign, indeterminate on Gaza, and had (or really, still have) a very “this is fine, you’re just overreacting, but sure we’ll fix a few things” attitude towards political messaging, only helped Republicans, because it led a lot of people to just vote for the party that promised the most, and that was the Republicans. All the wars would be over, things would be cheaper, all the “bad” people wouldn’t be here anymore, etc.
To a normal person with very little media literacy, those promises sound downright amazing.
I personally think we fix this by at least starting with messaging, since that’s what actually leads most people to make a decision on who to vote for. There were literally people deciding on election night who they wanted to vote for, so messaging is highly important.
The left needs to speak to the immediately visible, material needs of the working people directly. While it’s important to fight against the right on culture war issues to prevent the ceding of ground on things like civil rights and discrimination, I think a lot of left leaning messaging focuses too heavily on that, and as a result, it can seem to right-inclined people that the left has no economic policy. That needs to change.
See: Bernie Sanders, and how he very consistently addresses specific economic issues people face, and has broader support on the right compared to any democratic congressperson. Hell, even JD Vance said Bernie was one of the people he least disliked on the left, and Bernie’s further left than the Democrats. Populist, economic disparity focused, anti-billionaire, pro-worker sentiment is how you change ordinary people’s minds in the current media economy.
As an individual, the most you’ll likely be able to do in this respect is going to be volunteering for phone banking efforts, donating money to left leaning charities focused on reducing economic inequality, and generally bringing these kinds of talking points up in general political discussion with others.
There’s something else that’s commonly overlooked though, and that’s local policy. Think of a city’s “town hall” type meetings that accept public comment. How many people in that city are actually regularly attending a town hall meeting? Think of how few people it really is during a particularly contentious proposal. Now imagine what it’s like when it comes to something like “housing and urban development: reducing the rate of homelessness - meeting no. 57” Almost nobody. Get yourself and a few friends down to your local relevant policy meetings, make even a little noise, and the amount of change you can make as a result can be drastic compared to the actual % of the city’s population you make up.
Pushing for things like ranked-choice voting in local elections can also be very viable, since it’s proven that tends to push voters further left, on average, and it also adds some extra competition that can spur a party like the Democrats into actual meaningful action.
Almost nobody using Lemmy voted for him.
Try telling the blue MAGA BidenBro conservatives.
They basically handed one of the strongest countries in the world to a very typical college bully and his lackies.
Most of us want the shithead gone just as bad as you do, but too many dumbshits decided they’d rather not stop him because the alternative wasn’t perfect. I hate it here.
Most? He already was president and over 50% voted that guy into office again? How are most people against him?
He didn’t get 50% of the vote.
He won be cause either 6 million people didn’t vote or, to quote Trump, “[Elon] knows those computers better than anybody. All those computers. Those vote-counting computers. And we ended up winning Pennsylvania like in a landslide.”
A surprisingly large number of people don’t vote. I refuse to believe that anything approaching half of voting-age Americans support this. Unfortunately, here we are.
Everyone who didn’t vote supports this.
If as many people who turned up to vote would turn up to protest, things would change. Alas, liberals who think filling out the ballot is enough democracy for 4 years are not friends of democracy.
Of course liberals arent friends of democracy.
Liberals refuse to replace First past the post voting with a more representative electoral system in the blue states they control. You can see them here, in this thread, circlejerking over the fact that people are unrepresented by their options at the polls.
We will most likely be using FPTP voting for the mid terms, and these same blue conservatives will be howling about 3rd parties existing. All while doing nothing to fix the spoiler effect that is inherent in the mathematically flawed voting system most states use.
I don’t think I would say non-voters support this.
But they sure as fuck are complicit in not stopping an OBVIOUS threat to democracy by failing to do the absolute bare minimum civic duty of voting.
Edit: fixed grammar
And even more didn’t vote in 2024 than 2020- and most of those who didn’t vote this time would have otherwise voted against Trump. 50% of US votes is far far less than 50% of people eligible to vote in the US.
50% of the people that voted in the last election voted for him. Some people didn’t vote, so about 33% of those that could vote voted for him. Since the election, his approval ratings dropped about 15-20%, so about 25% of those able to vote still support him.
Further, it’s 50% of the people in the swing states that really decide things. I’m sure most New Yorkers and Californians that didn’t vote did so because they knew their state would go blue regardless.
Yep. The rule of thumb is that if you were in a swing state, your vote counted for about 5-6 votes because of the way the electoral college works.
Democracy ™️
There is no equal representation as long as the lower house is capped and the upper house is equal.
I have the same representation as millions of empty acres of land. It’s fucking bullshit. Taxes should work respectively. Your votes are worth more? Cool, foot the bill instead of me funding your backwards empty fucking state.
"They didn’t know"TM
No, most of you either directly voted for him or didn’t care if he won.
Source?
Definitely not most.
most of you decided voting was too much of hassle
As an American. Agreed
Let’s remember that there good people there too. Let’s remember that these scumbags, whichever country they run, rely on our sweat, tears and blood to move forward with their decisions. While not all of us are good, obviously, I want to believe that many Americans were tricked by media to think Trump was a valid choice. What we need to understand it’s that this is a us people versus them rulers. If only we would understand this together and stop fighting each other…
The fact that a nation does fascist shit is never excused by the fact that there might be people who weren’t all bad. Or were even good.
Sincerely, A German.
I’m sure the media played a part.
But fuck. He was so obvious with his racism, with his desire to be a dictator, fuckin everything.
Fuck.
rely on our sweat, tears and blood to move forward with their decisions
Agreed, so stop giving it to them. When I see Americans bring the country to a screeching halt through protest, disobedience, and strikes I will believe in the good people there.
“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”
I mean, that counts for Russia as well, but until recently you couldn’t say anything like this without getting attacked
Yeah.
Yeah…
its better to move on and forget about them, because they made it very clear over the last 10 years these types of people absolutley do not give a fuck about anyone elses opinion, and would much rather kill anyone who gets in their way.
Does anyone else have the feeling that Ukraine is safer with no deal?
Yeah, and the EU should immediately step up, and triplicate support for Ukraine.
We (Europe) already did most of the heavy lifting for Ukraine. The US mostly gave old stockpiles of weapons that they would’ve needed to destroy anyway. We are the ones actually paying cash to keep them afloat.
The problem is, in the post-WW2 order, our defense and our defense industry was made dependent on the USA by design. And even up until last November, Europe didn’t want to challenge this arrangement and just went full steam ahead with this arrangement, ordering US made weapons. I think Europe was in denial that Biden could lose or that NATO could ever end.
Only France, and to a limited extent, Sweden and Turkey, have independent defense industries.
In the future, we will have it again. And Ukraine will actually be a key player.
But in the short term, there is no magical button to press that can produce the arms.
Undoing decades of integration isn’t going to be easy.
Indeed, especially during the first Cold War, the US Military Industrial Complex was everywhere. Germany and Japan were forced to buy out dated shit from the Americans. The magical button, tell the US military to shutdown all their European military installations and leave. What would the US MIC do then? I highly doubt they want to lose business.
Putin is going to make a hard move into the baltics during Trump’s first 2 years, including NATO countries. And Europe won’t be able to do shit about it. They need defenses now and European leadership needs to fast track it.
you talk as if Europe doesn’t have agency, or a military.
they do. they have gaps in their capability that have been created by the departure of US. and they no longer have the overwhelming advantage against Russia, but the thing is Russia will still get absolutely smoked.
the only thing that has changed, is it will be a far bloodier fight. Europe and America are both casualty averse. the prospect of things like Bucha Mariupol and Irpin happening in their cities, the population isnt ready for that.
(And to be clear, what happened in those towns and cities were a crime against humanity, after what Russia did there the Ukrainians understood very well this is a genocidal total war, its kill or be killed, and I dont think Europe has understood thats what its going to be.)
Maybe,just maybe, look up your world politics again.
- All baltic nations(except Russia) are NATO members
- All baltic nations (except Russia) are EU members and therefore covered by the Lisbon accords as well - which are much more far reaching than what NATO accords cover,btw.
So while the Baltics are in a shitty situation it’s not like Russia could attack a “non NATO” Baltic nation - as your “including” make it seem.
And currently there are 40.000 Soldiers of the ARF either deployed in the Baltics or ready to deployed within short notice - while the EU battlegroup is also available and gaining speed. The former is - for the first time - not sustained by US troops mainly,the later one of course never was. And as the ARF is a very British corps the UK has made it very clear that the ARF also operates under the British nuclear deterrence - so did France with both battlegroups.
Will that be enough to deter Putin? Who knows. Is it nothing? Definitely not - at the moment it would be, even without US support, enough to cause either the Ukrainian front or the “new front” (wherever that would be) to collapse fast.
Your narrative is either influenced by Russian misinformation or you are Russian misinformation - it is known that Russia tries to “it’s not worth it to even fight” narrative heavily into Europe and it has done so in Ukraine before.
Making a dumbass geography mistake proves I’m American, not Russian 😅
Anyway, I don’t think 40,000 is enough if the USA is aligned or even allied with Russia. Which you know, seems entirely possible given current events.
40.000 is what is currently part of the reaction force - not the total force strength.
Active service/Reserve forces of the nations with direct borders to either Belarus or Russia:
-
Norway: 33.000/60.000
-
Finnland: 18.000/ 180.000-280.000 (And we all know how this turned out the last time)/18.000
-
Lithuania: 23.000/104.000
-
Estonia: 7.700/80.000(but almost half in rapid response readiness)
-
Latvia: 17.000/38.000
-
Poland: 216.000/670.000
That does not include the countries that are currently heavily investing in the Baltics. Germany plans to have 4.000 soldiers stationed there permanently with 30.000 active personal rotating in and out. Canada has also a brigade stationed there, the UK does the same and hosts the command in the UK.
If you count the other Baltic sea nations that mostly have a very high interest in keeping the Russiand at bay you also have Sweden (24.000+22.000 Homeguard/32.000), Denmark (16.000/12.000+51.000 HomeGuard) and Germany (180.000/930.000) you have even higher numbers.
These are roughly twice as many soldiers as Putin currently can access at the moment - and he is heavily based on conscripts and semi general mobilization which is not part of the equations for most countries here, neither are other key players (e.g. UK 135.000/32.000), France (270.000/63.000), Spain(133.000/264.000), Italy (165.000/35.000), Romania (81.000/55.000) and the smaller but often highly motivated nations, e.g. the Czech Republic (34.000/4000). Even though there are some countries who’s motivation may be shaky (Italy, to some extend Germany and some smaller players like Hungary) Europe very likely would be united against a common cause in a situation like that. The most interesting point would be how Erdogan in Türkiye would respond - he has one of the largest armies on this side of the pond (481.000/380.000) and there are quite a lot of people who believe that Erdogan would actually stick with “European NATO” in this case simply he would be too afraid that Putin could either reconsider his “future” border (post Georgia invasion which is far more likely) with Türkiye or simply because he would be afraid of his old military guard.
Would that guarantee victory against a joint Putin-Trump full on attack against Europe? No. Not at all. All sides would loose. Terribly.
In total soldier numbers Europe does actually surpass both the current Russian and all US armed forces combined (narrowly). Of course the US have a huge material advantage,but this is partially based on logistics from Europe (and often stored here). All this facilities would be lost then and Russia would be unable to easily supply similar logistical capacities - they simply don’t have them and transport via eastern polar routes(as the western routes are within Norwegian and Finnish reach) or the eastern ports of Russia is bothersome.
While the US navy is mighty,it would be operating very far from home - further away than it has operated from any allied base ever and in very very hostile waters. (Actually the British navy is the last modern navy to have operated that far away from an allied base during a combat mission) So the US would be limited to high flying stealth bombers (don’t do that much damage and can absolutely be detected by modern western radar), stuff they drag all the way through Russia, whatever they can ferry through the pond which would be infested by various submarines that, while mainly non nuclear, are still a major treat to their navy (ask the Swedes).It would certainly not be enough for a D-Day like operation.
So the other option is: Well… intercontinental ballistic missiles. While I am absolutely sure that the fascist orange wouldn’t hesitate a minute to use this option if someone tells him it makes his golf course worth more as all of Scotland’s course are now burned to crisps it would also mean that Putin and Trump himself would be fucked. Because the very next minute he presses the button someone else will press a button - either in London or Paris. France is already offering to place nuclear capabilities in eastern and central Europe for this very reason. In the end Washington would be nuked the same way Moscow, London, Paris and Berlin would be. And while the Orange acts irrational his buddy Putler does not - the mediocre KGB officer understands what happens to him if his puppet in Washington overreacts.
-
You just made all of the points that I was thinking about.
Triple*
Any deal with Trump is no deal at all. He’s the kind of guy that, if you give an inch, starts waving his hands around about how you stole 16 inches from him, and how you must be thrown in a hole somewhere.
Granting him anything is telling him that you are weak and ripe to be exploited.
Just like with any dictator deals are worthless. Putin broke the ceasefire and Trump is breaking trade deals.
This guy does (he was there too, sitting next to vance, btw)
I’m certain Dr Birx can recommend him a therapist who specializes in sold souls…
A man who, by the way, was fully supported by every single democratic senator.
He was supposed to be the “adult” in the room. They all fear Trump… For some reason, I don’t get it.
trump is a good punishment for power-hungry politician types, too bad that it is at everyone else’s expense.
Yes. USA already knows what its going to do. A hypothetical trade agreement isn’t going to change the decision, so Ukraine should make exactly zero concessions in pursuit of influencing a decision which has already been made.
Exactly, Trump already decided he was going to surrender. Zelensky knew he wasn’t going to get anything, but it was worth a shot I guess
They’re safer if they develop nuclear weapons on their own.
Libya and Ukraine convey the same warning to non NATO states. Have nukes or perish.
I’d suspect they’re safer with a deal… but they absolutely shouldn’t honor that deal.
They’re safer with a deal with guarantees, but Trump doesn’t want to give any, only take the profit. Otherwise it’s a choice between soldiers dying and soldiers dying with profit sharing.
All to play for . Join EU. Agree no NATO Putin fucks off.
America frozen.
Not sure how the US would react. Probably war.
They can sign a 50 year deal and stop payment 10 years from now, hopefully thing change for better then.
Ah it’s time for Poland to raise a big stink about the next errant missile and invoke article 5 as the zerg rush red square
NATO is dead for all practical purposes. You think this trump asswipe is going to lift a finger if anything more serious happens in Europe?
You do realize that article 5 does not mean that other countries have to join the war, right? They can choose to or they can choose not to. Even if they choose to get involved, it can be in form of economic support. And even if they choose to declare war, it can be in form of loud words. So I expect Poland would be on it’s own.
It means they have to under their treaty obligations. If they choose not to, they are in violation of the treaty and NATO is just over. If the Americans want to do this, they should forever be reminded that article 5 has been used only once before, by them, and the allies came to their aid no questions asked.
Edit: someone has already basically already commented what I had said and I missed it
They are under an obligation to decide what they want to do collectively. If they decide that it was an aggression, then they are under obligation to provide support. It can be exact same"support" that Europe is already providing to Ukraine. That’s too say not much of it
You’re thinking of article 4.
The Article 5 wording is vague. It states that an attack against one member “shall be considered an attack against them all.” What is quoted less often is that each member state only has an obligation to take “such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force.”
