Summary
Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni has called for an “immediate” summit between the US, EU, and Western allies to discuss Ukraine following a heated White House meeting between Trump and President Zelenskyy.
The February 28 meeting ended without agreement on a minerals deal after escalating into a confrontation over US aid and peace deal conditions.
Meloni warned that Western division “makes us all weaker” as European leaders reaffirmed support for Ukraine.
EU foreign policy chief Kaja Kallas commented that “the free world needs a new leader,” while European allies worry about being excluded from US-Russia negotiations to end the war.
Don’t know what business a russian puppet state has being in NATO. The sooner the US is kicked out of NATO the better.
America is pro Russian anti Europe. This charade of pretending like the US isn’t is a waste of time.
Just saying…it’s fucking Trump and his genocidal narcissistic billionaire Nazis that are sucking Russian cock…There are millions of us agast and horrified at this goddamn heel turn to Russian scum…and fuck me lots of us in the US are dumber than dog shit with no ability for critical thought.
Slava Ukraine!
Trump and Elon are. I doubt the same is true for most actual Americans.
Maybe not, but the majority of voters apparently support Trump - so effectively that means USA as a country supports Trump. (And thus the USA as a country is no longer reliable or trustworthy.)
Sentiments of “most” Americans matters as much as “most” Russians. Useless equivalent of thoughts and prayers when it doesn’t stop the people in charge.
Sad but true 🙁
Who is in charge, though?
Grossly misinformed and deliberately un(der)educated voters.
Hard pass. He would just use the opportunity to rant at our diplomats like he did with Zelenskyy. We wouldn’t want to sign any deals with a criminally insane dictator anyway.
The bond is broken, the ship has sailed. Time for us to pursue a Europe First strategy. Post haste, preferably.
And it’s not just investments into military hardware we need to make but also pharmaceuticals, semiconductors, etc. We need to become independent as soon as possible.
The groundwork is there. We can do it if we really want. MEGA will beat MAGA, and screw Trump and his puppet master.
MEGA is a great idea, just don’t let maggots…I mean magat style insanity infiltrate. I’m so ashamed of my country
I hope so. A good step would be for the UK to rejoin the EU but that seems unlikely to happen in the next decade. But we need to build solidarity and resilience, and like you say, increase our independence as much as feasible
As an American, I endorse this message.
Meloni warned that Western division “makes us all weaker”
No shit, that is literally the reason Trump is being divisive
I am Italian and I beg the EU to ostracize Meloni and Orban as much as possible, especially in this crucial moment. As fascists and Putin puppets just like Trump, their simple plan is stall things long enough for Ukraine to be in an even worse situation.
I am not Italian, rather swedish, but what I have seen from Meloni in reality is that she has taken a very firm stance against Putin and his war on Ukraine and has given huge amounts of military equipment (scroll down to Italy to see what military equipment they have given) and and money to Ukraine. Meloni has never stood in the way of political decisions to support Ukraine or sanctions against Russia to my knowledge, rather has been at the forefront of implementing them and has continuously condemned Putin and Russia’s agression. Exactly in what way is Meloni a puppet of Putin?
We give a lot because we produce a lot. Italy’s arms export grew 86% between 2019 and 2024.
And while we are too weak to be openly against our major trade partner, Germany, she is also balancing her act with our second trade partner, the USA and trying to explain her electorate that she is still the one they voted for who called Orbán an exemplary leader, all while Salvini, another prominent member of her government, screamed for a Peace Prize to Trump as soon as he appeared to give in to Putin.
Right now Starmer and Meloni are what is dragging everyone else’s feet on a United EU Defense plan and an EU-led diplomatic move towards Russia.
In the 100 years old tradition of fascist parties in Italy, she is also subject to the whims of much more powerful actors internally and externally.
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Too late Meloni. The EU needs to decide without the AmeriKans.
AmeriKlans XD
I would start from removing dollar reserves from european banks. The value of money is only when people believe it have value. So if US money won’t have any value Europe won’t need US help.
I approve. As an American, I have been trying to swap my savings for Euros, because it feels like that the American Dollar will hyperinflate. However, I have a concern:
Musk is likely to try to install a Muskcoin and create a X Everything app, so that he can control the money of Americans. The EU will need to offer Euro banking services in the Blue States to oppose the establishment of Muskcoin. Also, blacklist American billionaires from European fiscal institutions, such as not accepting the swap of Musk’s dollars for Euros or EU properties.
I’ve never expected that the Cyberpunk eurodollar is about to be defictionalized.
Gonna get me some Eddies
What’s the conversion to nuYen, chummer?
(My first and formative experience with cyberpunk is actually Shadowrun 2nd Edition)
DOGE will fuck with the FDIC, force banks out of business. Musk tweets “Don’t worry, X has secured a contract from this great administration and have started XBank! All accounts and money from all US-based banks, credit unions, and other financial institutions will be migrated to XBank. Download the app immediately. X account is required to access the XBank app. This will be the only way to access your money so get your account today!”
And then their server center burns down from the enormous influx of traffic, Musk pockets the money, and the entire world sweeps into something worse than the Depression because a good chunk of the entire world economy simply doesn’t exist now.
His kiddies had write address in the treasury.
I picture the economy able to leave to Russia on any second Friday.
This is coming down the pipe I can see it now. All transactions will also be settled in dogecoin.
That could actually aid the US, of they were to shift again to a strong industrial base, and become an exporting nation.
That wouldn’t happen under current cost of living conditions and with this administration. And if it does happen at some point, well that’s the positive path out of this mess no? I don’t think there’s a solution that doesn’t involve getting most Americans decent paying work.
Everyone deserves a decent wage. It’s wishful thinking but maybe this mess is the straw that breaks the camels back and systems shifts.
I understand that Meloni is struggling with cognitive dissonance here because she loves Trump and the American far right but also recognizes Russia as the obvious enemy to Europe that they are (and thereby making Ukraine our natural ally).
But the time for courting is over. America has become a hostile nation and they might actually be our enemy soon.
Increase European integration and federalization. Increase defense spending and fund a European MIC. Organize into a joint European army. This and only this can be our way forward or we will be crushed between two fascist superpowers.
Italian here:
Meloni and her government do not perceive Putin as an enemy AT ALL. One of the most prominent members of her government even said Putin should receive a Nobel Peace prize.
Meloni and Orban are just fascists, in the case of Meloni even belonging to the excised appendix of a literal Fascist party.
Please take them at face value!
Thank you, I’m aware they’re fascists but it seems I was a bit misinformed about their stance on Ukraine and Russia.
I couldn’t agree more. I’m an outsider to Europe, unfortunately, and find myself as a Canadian increasingly seeing America in much the way Ukraine must have felt about Russia in 2010. Europe is the last hope for democracy and the rule of law in the world right now.
I hope we can greatly strengthen our relationship between the EU and Canada.
Same here my friend. Terrible times in the world, and the only way to survive such times is cooperation
I understand that Meloni is struggling with cognitive dissonance
They are doing what every politician and ruler does, they lie to the public and do whatever gets them more power and wealth.
It’s actually worse. I think Meloni is not in the game for power or wealth (at least, not mainly), she is someone who is in for her ideas. The problem is that her ideas are shitty neofascism.
fascism had no ideas neither, their ideas were shifted constantly to whatever suited them best. This person hanged to fascism to get votes and distanced from it once elected to keep votes.
No, I think they had ideas. In Italy at least the ideological pillars were quite clear and are the same as they were 100 years ago. Support to industrial class (capital) was a constant and still is. Militarism, religion in politics, nationalism, racial discrimination, anticommunism etc. also. In general I agree that fascism is not an ideology as much as a way to conduct politics. But Italian fascists did not evolve or change in the last century. Maybe we can discuss how nationalism became atlantism (because anticommunism prevailed), but apart from that, I see quite a lot of stability in those ideas.
No, I think they had ideas. In Italy at least the ideological pillars were quite clear and are the same as they were 100 years ago. Support to industrial class (capital) was a constant and still is. Militarism, religion in politics, nationalism, racial discrimination, anticommunism etc. also.
None of these things were a mussolini constant
I am aware of my own country’s history. Socialist roots of Mussolini contributed to the ideological foundation of fascism, and some of these roots are somewhat visible and remained until today in neofascist parties. For example, looking at how Forza Nuova and Casapound have deep roots in more proletarian suburbs and operated things like food delivery to poor people (only Italians, of course). The appeal to lower class while ultimately making the interests of capital is one of the reasons fascism is a hard disease to get rid of in Italy.
Not sure what you meant with the second link. The chapter of mixing religion and state is a very long discussion, and the racial discrimination is so obvious that I won’t even try to argue it (from colonialism, to folks songs like “faccetta nera”, to the practice of madamato).
In any case, the fascist tradition in Italy has been stable. Meloni is from Almirante’s school, for example, and honestly I would be hard pressed to find substantial differences in core pillars of Almirante’s party and Fratelli d’Italia.
Do you have any concrete example perhaps of areas in which fascist parties in Italy changed positions substantially over the years?
Do you have any concrete example perhaps of areas in which fascist parties in Italy changed positions substantially over the years?
They always do like they are doing it right now
Same in Slovenia when it comes to far right. They were drooling over Trump (our PM at the time even congratulated Trump on winning 2020 elections before the official results) and also painted themselves as biggest Ukraine supporters. Now I’m not sure where they stand and how they rationalize the situation, since I’m off X and Facebook.
How fucked is the world, when Meloni is the reasonable one…
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I’m Italian and I would have never thought that Meloni would be the reasonable one in this shit. Oh well.
She is just trying to act as interface between Europe (edit) and US. No idea why Italian government is always convinced to have a special relationship with the US, most likely because they are non threading to US hegemony as Germany or France are.
Denmark thought so, too. And of course Hungary still thinks it. When everybody thinks they will get special treatment from the US, internal cohesion suffers, as evidenced by this “summit” bullshit.
Interesting, I guess it’s hard for me to know the viewpoint of other countries that are not so much in the spotlight (no offense, of course). I know close to 0 about Denmark’s relationship with US, for example.
Because Italy has no natural resources and we evolved into the perfect slave of American neocolonialism. Without the US buying our shit, we would have our economy in shambles.
France and Germany (our actual major trade partner btw, US is second) have made VERY different investments.
We have also never been imperial powers (both France and Germany were and to some extent are). I guess we have a different history in general, though.
BTW, we deindustrialized in the last 25ish years, we were actually above Germany as an industrial power. So I don’t think it’s just economic dependency.
We have also never been imperial powers
Italy did maintain colonies in parts of what today are Libya, Eritrea, Ethiopia and Somalia, among other places, albeit the Italian imperial project was comparatively short in both time and space.
Yes, I am aware. Despite the cruelty (especially in Eritrea) it was a parody of a colonial power, and I wouldn’t call it an empire.
Fair enough. I couldn’t tell from your original comment.
Multiple Ceasars are spinning in their graves, at your first sentence. 🤣
That wasn’t Italy that was something else Altogether but in the geographic area of italy, the real Italy we all know and love began in the 18th century as an effect of Napoleon’s conquest then loss. Before that it was an geographic amalgation of principalities and kingdoms. All different currencies, armies, borders etc.
Never been an imperial power, aside from when we created the concept
At that time the concept of Italy didn’t exist :) it barely exists now.
Meloni probably wants to congratulate Trump.
Europe really needs to beef up its defense industries and whatnot. America’s unreliability is becoming an existential threat and it’s clear that Trump and Co will be extremely opportunistic and quick to align with Russia.
when the over extended USD crashes offer up the EU and move on while US sinks into a generational depression from the interest alone.
TLDR positive trade and international allies matter. Isolationism ends with one outcome.
Unfortunately, that next recession, which I believe likely becomes a depression, is going to slam everyone. The EU, USA, China, Russia, Japan, South Korea etc. all have major challenges and weaknesses.
I wonder how a catastrophic global down turn would effect CO2 emissions.
Do people become more progressive politically during a recession? Or do you need a world war for that I wonder.
decreased economic activity alone I’d think would reduce emissions.
Yeah but to change our trajectory on climate change we need a dramatic change in political will
Oh yeah, substantial change will require a huge overall in political and social views, I fully agree there. Right now, at best, it seems like we might get some occasional bandaids.
A huge war might indeed be one of the few catalysts to instill that change. Major environmental crises might do it too, but those events will probably unfold after too much damage has been done.
Wildfires, hurricanes, and everything else have been pretty crazy in recent years but what we’re seeing now may pale compared to what we see in say thirty years.
You are correct, it absolutely will, its the cost of unrestricted spending and valueless trade currency. When the USD disappears all would feel it but the US would shrink and feel it generations its so debted
I love reading about people not knowing the EU military industry writing about how it’s somehow weak. Newsflash: it’s not. We don’t talk or write about it 'cause it’s sensitive data. We protect sensitive data. Our armies may not be strong, but our military industry is.
Your industries can’t even supply artillery and basic equipment to Ukraine, at least nowhere at the level needed to win the war. This is well-known. European leaders have been harping on the need to upgrade capacities.
So, newsflash: sorry, your military industry isn’t up to par yet. The potential is there. Many of the technologies are there. The actual support and capacity to make the most out of that potential is lacking.
This isn’t in any way a controversial opinion. The reality on the ground with constant shortages and European leaders themselves acknowledging the military industry needs more support is well known.
It’s not entirely correct to use the ukranian war as an example of EU industries not being able to supply enough: the US took the lead there an EU expected support to last so they didn’t even make the effort. Most of our industries SELL abroad an ukraine was not needing our support since the US was supposed to cover for it.
Granted the industry is fragmented and not really cohesive, so it would lack in the quantity, but I was merely referring to quality as in we are able to create top of the line weapons and systems that are the best of the world (exluding stealth fighter jets).
If the EU focuses in one direction and stops selling all around… And seeing how it is being basically forced to do so.
This was more of an answer to the guys saying “EU just buys US weapons because those are the best!” Rather than a direct answer to you, but I’d rather answer to someone capable of reasoning…
I mean, if you were actually capable of reasoning you would have picked up early on that I very clearly stated Europe has world-class technology and potential. As you already noted, along with European leaders and industry analysts, fragmentation is a challenge (among other challenges.)
“the US took the lead there an EU expected support to last”
The USA was clear from the get-go that EU needed to provide a lot of support and that we largely view this is a European war, because, you know, it is a European war.
It’s too bad you were so focused on attacking me from the get-go because we actually probably could have had a great and insightful conversation.
Sorry, I wasn’t clear enough since I stated it at the end of the message instead of the beginning. I agree with basically everything you said, except using the ukranian war support as an example of the production capabilities of the EU industry.
Sorry if it came out as if I wanted to attack you on points you agreed upon, I just used you improperly as a way to post those points out more clearly for others to see.
Fair. The whole world is on thin ice and things may snowball quickly. I wish the best for Europe in the months and years ahead.
Newsflash: it’s not.*
- As long as it’s not made by the Brits.
(Looks accusingly at the SA80 / L85 platform… And the Challenger 2)
So strong it buys all relevant jets from the us.
So strong.
Europe’s euro fighter jet is and was a very respectable fighter. With the shift towards stealth with the latest generation, it may be falling behind in key areas but still a good air craft. Developing a jet is a huge, huge undertaking and arguably Europe’s resources could be spent better elsewhere rather than trying to develop an F35/F22 competitor.
Europe does have industrial and military capacity issues. This is well known and European leaders are among the quickest to point it out. No idea why the guy above wants to bury his head in the sand on that.
The biggest issues are arguably fragmentation and tepid political/societal support. Europe has various strengths but work is needed to make the most out of their potential.
Related question: are fighter jets even going to be relevant anymore after a war like the one in Ukraine?
I think they’ll still be relevant for the foreseeable future but whereas traditional air power was once arguably the crucial element in many wars, it may not be the deciding factor in many conflicts going forward, at least if two modern militaries are facing off against each other.
Drones will be key in every war I’d think. And hypersonic missiles will probably be crucial in wars with modern militaries clashing.
choice for US jets was basically obligated for many countries because they had to choose a model that is capable of carrying US made nukes stored on territory. French and Brits make fine jets.
The thing is, the US has 100,000 troops and god knows how much military materiel in Europe. America leaves NATO, you think they are just going to pick up all their people and stuff and go because we ask them to politely?
We need a European army yesterday.
I think you’d have to play psychology there to be honest. Next time Trump asks for payments for the troops, for example, you might wanna say “actually, we were thinking you should be paying rent.”
It’s a really messy situation. While the EU/USA are allies, those troops do increase security. But there is already a threat simply by those troops being there, and if the USA becomes a full blown enemy yeah it’s a grave threat.
Europe really needs to beef up its defense industries and whatnot.
Europe is already spending billions of billions in its defense. Europe countries combined already spend more money in war than russia. Every country in the world (russia, china, usa, europe and everyone else) need to cut the military budget and use public money for something more useful.
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/emma-goldman-preparedness-the-road-to-universal-slaughter
A stand down on war period would be wonderful. Unfortunately, as long as aggressors are on the board, you have to maintain a defensive posture. Europe’s deficiencies have been made clear but their on-going struggles to supply Ukraine. Russia may spend less, but like China, their lower per capita income in some ways helps them get more out of their money (thankfully, corruption and other issues also nerf Russia).
you have to maintain a defensive posture.
To maintain a defensive posture you don’t need to spend a cent, raise your elbows and clench your fists. I’m using your wordplay to highlight that you don’t need to spend billions in weapons designed to attack and kill other men to be able to defend yourself.
Yes. You do. That’s unquestionable. Ukraine is barely holding on with overall generous support from the USA and Europe.
The government and invisible lines on the ground are barely holding. In many occasions Ukrainian people managed to defend themself with diy drones duck taped to explosive which proved to be more effective than equipment worth millions dollars.
I can say a few words about that, since I make DIY drones (minus the explosives).
Short summary: you need billions of investment into industry to be able to make cheap drones (but a nice feature: the same factories can supply peaceful activity during peaceful times).
Motors: you cannot DIY them, you need a factory making magnets, ball bearings, rotors and stators, and a final factory for assembly.
Motor controllers: you cannot DIY them beyond a crude prototype for which you naturally need to buy parts. You need a factory making microcontrollers, MOSFETs, PCB boards and a factory to assemble the stuff (robotic pick and place machines, automated soldering ovens, automated testing, etc).
Flight controllers: same as with motor controllers, you need a factory to make them. Open source only comes in at the last step where you configure BetaFlight or ArduPilot as you please.
Flight computers: same as with flight controllers, you need a factory. Fortunately Raspberry Pi, the world’s most-produced microcomputer is made in the UK… from parts largely imported from China. DIY comes in at the last moment, where you choose the operating system and customize (or build) navigation software.
Batteries: making cells needs a factory. DIY comes at the last stage, if the factory doesn’t make ideal batteries, so you buy loose cells and customize.
Fiber optical transceiver: I have not yet seen a garage-built one, though I have seen free space optical transceivers (currently not used in war fighting) that are pretty DIY. But you need components. You can’t cook a silicon photomultiplier in a kitchen, you need a semiconductor factory.
Optical fiber: unfeasible to DIY. Samples can be made in a lab, but to make 20 kilometers of good fiber, you need a well-adjusted factory. You buy up telecom fiber, by shipload if you can, by truckload if you cannot.
Camera: nope, cannot be DIY-ed.
Explosives: can be DIYed at the cost of accidents costing engineers’ lives. So in practise, cannot be DIY-ed.
Airframe: now, the airframe of a drone can be DIY-ed (and this can convey tangible benefits).
(I better not try to write the same about artillery barrels, since artillery is the second most destructive weapon in this war after drones. A DIY artillery barrel is possible, but for pumpkin shooting competitions or at best, short range smoothbore mortars. Heavy industry, high quality steel and a long process with many steps are needed to make a long rifled barrel for high pressure shots.)
Thanks for sharing your knowledge on drones. By diy i wasn’t talking sourcing every material as if you were stranded on a desert island but rather referring to the modular drones already available. They also have been using rc cars with explosive, while making one from scratch would require an industry the idea is that there’s plenty available already and people if needed can successfully defend themself with what they can source.
The USA absolutely cannot be trusted as an ally. If a war we’re to break out right now I truly do not know what side I’d be on.
I know which side I’d be on, just not sure which side my government will be.
Everyone everywhere needs to boycott and move away from American products and services as much as possible. Do not travel to America. Cancel your Netflix, do not use Airbnb, avoid American wherever you can.
We’ve been doing that in Canada for a few weeks now. It’s fun.
🫡 And that has been well and truly noticed. You’re doing great. Keep it up and hopefully the rest of the world will follow.
And you’re right, it is fun, and liberating.
This here so much. /a German
Wouldn’t be surprised to see a headline soon saying that discussion broke down too.
“Don’t tell me how to feel. We’re gonna feel great. You know what? I didn’t hear a thank you from you. We’re gonna put the world’s biggliest Olive Garden right here in America’s 53th state, how about that, Meloni? It’ll be the best deal.”
“MAKE A DEAL MELONI, MAKE A DEAL”
Trump to Meloni: “You’re not holding any cards and I’m seeing unlimited f$#&ing breadsticks on my new golf course, Meloni. MAKE THE DEAL MELONI. I’M SUCH A GREAT DEAL MAKING GUY.”
–Future headline
Italy needs to understand that thinking you can reason with Trump makes Europe weaker.
In fact, this works with all countries. He’s a literal baby. He doesn’t understand or want to hear your reasoning because he knows he’s right. As soon as everybody understands that, the quicker they can get to the task of isolating the US as much as possible.
Italy is probably not acting in good faith. Meloni is a serious piece of shit.
Italian here, I feel ashamed of our PM. It is even more ridiculous how she endorsed the relationship with US just a couple of weeks ago and then Trump started doing even more shitty things.
Not to downplay Italian politics, But Trump is not acting in good faith either. Trump is a serious piece of shit too.
Italy’s leader is like actually a neofascist
Which is probably why she’s so keen to talk to Trump, who’s also a fascist.
And trump and his GOP friends aren’t? The only difference is that Italian fascists can use the nostalgia card, so their rhetoric is clearer.
I am surprised that after all what have been happening in just the last weeks any entity would consider Trump’s words to have any value of any kind, they end having no reliability nor accountability, how could be worth any reasoning attempt?
What does she think she’s going to accomplish inviting the US, except sabotage?
Oh wait, she’s a fascist – that’s exactly what she’s hoping to accomplish.
Who’s gonna be representing murica there? Is it gonna be this happy threesome?
I trust the sofa; it looks reliable.
Chances he already made love to ot it
We all know Vance was fondling that sofa when attention was turned elsewhere.
Looks like Rubio is not yet used to sofa fucking.
Actually such a disappointment from him, after his talks about Ukraine few years ago.
The Secretary of State implements foreign policy but doesn’t decide it.
Honestly, if I were Rubio I would have declined the Secretary of State spot. At the moment, I doubt it does much to help any Presidential ambitions he might have and he probably had more actual power in the Senate rather than at State.
Yeah, you’re right.
At this point we either end up as a dictatorship (please God I hope not) or his current role right now will disqualify him from presidency in the future.
Knees needed bending. Rings needed kissing.
I’ve seen some analysts claim that just this one time Zelensky needed to be more of an actor and smile and wave through the bullshit. But I disagree, if you stand for nothing, you will keep getting walked over, if not by putin, by trump, like little Marco here.
I suspect the whole thing was premeditated, so it wouldn’t have mattered. Does the VP normally interrupt the president when talking to other world leaders? Zelensky smiling and tacitly agreeing to Putin’s narrative was never going to happen. I also can’t imagine any European leader going to the White House and saying, “Yes, we’ve treated you very unfairly. The European Union was just a conspiracy to screw over America and we’re very sorry, Dear Leader…”
When I saw the latest deal, it didn’t look as bad (I mean it was bad, but not horribly bad as the initial suggestion) so was wondering what changed again. Yeah, looks like he was baited and this was done on purpose.
Trump wants to go all the way with Russia, but there are still Republicans that support Ukraine or at least dislike Russia and he wanted to show them that Zelenskyy is just an ungrateful warmonger.
Another thing is that trump invited Russian press to this meeting (while American AP is banned).
