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Look, NATO is bad, that’s why it’s absolutely necessary for anti-imperialism purposes that Russia invades its neighbors before they can get into NATO!
I am still amazed at the 12 dimensional chess thought process of invading a country that didn’t join NATO to discourage joining NATO. All that socialized vodka in the maternity ward must be getting out of hand.
Which works about as good as rhe war on terror
“Bro just one more invasion bro I swear this time it’ll really solve
terrorismWestern Imperialism™ for good!”Problem is, Russia is technically in the west.
Something something, Eurasian realignment BRICS Imperial Core Global South Anti-Colonial Axis of Resistance.
I think I’m ready to start my career as a professional tankie!
Gentle reminder that blocking the entire Lemmy.ml instance has made this place a lot less … tankie
Can you do that yet without your instance just entirely defederating?
Yes. Go to: settings > blocks > scroll down
At the end of the page, below your blocked users and communities, there is a list of instances, which you blocked. You can add instances there aswell.
Please be aware that user-level instance blocking is not the same as instance-level defederation. User-level instance blocking is equivalent to blocking all the communities from that instance. AFAIK you’ll still see posts and comments from the blocked instance in other communities. More problematically, the blocked instance still influences your feed via its votes.
Sure I’m a NATO apologist: I’m sorry NATO is necessary because Russia is such an antagonistic fuckwad.
Russia had a choice: play by the west’s rules, or play second fiddle to China. They chose the latter unfortunately for them and for us.
That’s just what happens when you go from tsarist serfdom state to a communist peasant regime to a “democractic” dictatorship while constantly greasing the gears with vodka and corruption.
Hey at least the alcoholism has gotten a little bit better, right?
Hey, you’d think so, right?
I mean, even if we trust the numbers coming out of a propaganda-riddled shithole whose only saving grace at this point would be a couple hundred strategically placed nukes (which - to be clear - I don’t. Their entire government+military is probably downing shots just to get through morning briefings). Even trusting their sources, they’re still back on the potato wild ride again. At this point I can only commend the nation for slowly killing itself, and blame them for not choosing a speedier route.
The world was deeply afraid of Marxism. When Russia experienced a workers-led revolution in 1917, Western powers were terrified of the spread of Marxist ideas and the potential threat they posed to the capitalist world order. In response, several Western states, along with their client states, sent their armies into Russia, aiming to overthrow the newly established worker-run government under the Bolsheviks. We attacked first, in an effort to suppress a system we feared.
This antagonism continued and evolved over the decades, culminating in the Cold War, where tensions between the Soviet Union and the West defined global politics. The Cuban Missile Crisis stands out as a key moment in this conflict. In fact, it was the United States that, in violation of international norms and against the Geneva Convention, installed nuclear launch sites along Russia’s borders in Turkey, heightening the threat and contributing to the Soviet response of placing missiles in Cuba.
Historically, it’s clear that we have been antagonistic towards Russia, driven by a fear of communism and a desire to maintain Western dominance. This pattern of confrontation has had long-lasting effects on the geopolitical landscape, contributing to the strained relations that persist today.
Dont take my word for this stuff, you can easily find information online, in text books.
Not to defend Western European imperialism in Russia because fuck that but no one did more to destroy the newly established worker-run government than the Bolsheviks. I’m assuming you’re a ML–unfortunately they don’t allow factual discussions of history, so you’ll need to read some history outside of the thought bubble to learn the truth.
Trotskyist, so all up for discussion and challenging my understanding. Point me in the direction.
Those… aren’t even mutually exclusive opinions? NATO can exist for more than one reason.
There is only one good opinion at any time, citizen. The correct opinion (my opinion) can change any time, but any different opinion is doubleplusungood.
No no no, they said “what about–,” so the argument is over.
Well if NATO exists for more than one reason and serve multiple purposes, then claiming NATO exists only for defensive purposes is wrong. Since it also exists for other purposes. Then it is also wrong that it is necessary harmless to Russia. I believe that is a logical conclusion?
But as soon as you express such an opinion you get branded a putinist and downvoted. That is why the lemmy.ml community protects itself from
nato expansionlemmy.world users.This question is so hot because it goes towards Russia’s justification for invasion, and for the claims of Ukraine and US to be completely innocent in the causes for the war. IF nato not only serves as a defensive organization but also serves as a tool for regime change then Russia does at least have a shitty justification for a preventive war - to prevent more arms building in Ukraine. And the war clearly has shown that Ukraine with enough weapon supplies by the west is a serious threat to Russia.
You do NOT have to be a tankie to be angry about the “brinkmanship” of the US, Ukraine and nato - and Russia. You can be angry at all parties. But the overwhelming propaganda or dogma on reddit and lemmy.world is that only Russia is to blame. This makes any diplomatic solutions impossible.
That is WHY the propaganda is so strong and why this opinion that nato eastward expansion represents not just defensive purposes is not allowed. Because otherwise you might end this war diplomatically.
Now the overwhelming majority of users will not give one inch on this position. You see how they make fun of this very serious and painful topic. I feel empathy for all the ukrainian and russian lives lost and get angry at the jokers preventing any honest discussion about the causes and possible solutions to this war. It is as painful as the israel/palestine conflict. So .ml and hexbear DO need to protect themselves from these kind of “nato is only defensive” crap because frankly, it is painful.
In this “post-truth” sense there is little difference between liberals or “lefties” and MAGAts. They deny historical facts or logical arguments. Except that the magats are weirdly also pro russia because of trump. That does not mean ml users are “pro” Russia or tankies. That is just a slur. There is plenty to hate about Putin. Especially his interference in social media and elections is abominable. But the neoliberals are no better!
Ah yes, that paragon of leftist virtue…
…checks notes…
Muammar Gaddafi?
And they wonder why they don’t get taken seriously.
The point is not that Gaddafi was a leftist, but that NATO is an evil imperialistic offensive organisation that overthrows governments
Of course Libya was never a NATO mission, was done by two countries (I include the UK as part of the USA at this point) that certainly could have coordinated even if NATO did not exist. France has always been the most NATO sceptical country in the union as well.
Oh and let’s not forget that blaming NATO allows them to forget the real reason France got involved there. But why would they want to distract people away from Sarkozy and his neoimperialism? Let me check what’s he got to say about Ukraine… Yup, checks out
I’d be glad if NATO didn’t exist.
It would mean countries wouldn’t feel threatened by their neighbors, and no invasions would happen.
But until that is the case, NATO is necessary.
Removed by mod
I would much prefer every country in the planet being in NATO.
Any country attacks any other country? Literally the whole world goes to defend it. So no invasions are possible.
It wouldn’t work though. Wouldn’t take much time for alliances to form that agree to not follow NATO’S rules.
Nato already does not enforce their mission against the US and US backed vassel states
Nato already does not enforce their mission against the US and US backed vassel states
When did the US invade a member of NATO, again?
Sorry, their presumed mission of ensuring peace in Europe through collective defense.
It’s built and structured around Russia being the main antagonist but it’s mostly been the US who’s activities have been destabilizing the security of Europe.
But you’re right, the explicit mission is to protect their members and noone else, so I guess everything is working as intended
It’s built and structured around Russia being the main antagonist but it’s mostly been the US who’s activities have been destabilizing the security of Europe.
lol
Tell me more about how America’s aggression turned the Baltic Sea into a NATO lake.
Fascists like you just can’t help yourselves when it comes to Russia, can you?
I have no problem acknowledging Russia’s aggression and imperialist activities, but NATO fanboys pretend as if NATO members are the ‘good guys’ and cannot themselves be seen as the instigators of European conflict.
NATO ends up categorizing conflict in Europe into two sides and ignores all conflict originating on the member side. An alliance that includes all members would at least in-theory be more equitable, but we already know that even a global supergovernment can selectively enforce their mission and ignore offenses by particular members.
but NATO fanboys pretend as if NATO members are the ‘good guys’ and cannot themselves be seen as the instigators of European conflict.
Hey, want to tell me what the European conflict going on right now is and who instigated it?
Maybe you could also do the last major European conflict too, just for fun?
“NATO is sabotaging European security” is such a braindead talking point that requires not just ignorance, but active denial of reality. It’s unsurprising that fascist shitheads find it so very appealing to parrot.
Nah, I want war. I want the rest of the world to go to war with the US. They’ve got a Nazi problem. We beat the Nazis in 1945 and we might need to beat them again in 2045.
Lmfao who’s the warmonger now?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bologna_massacre#False_leads
NATO isn’t there to defend you, it’s there to serve the interests of a bunch of rulers and elites
Believe it or not, both things can be true
Stuff can be two things!
Did you even read any of the link posted?
“Only your side can be evil and not mine!”
I mean the rulers and elites live in the same countries as many of us do and they sure as shit don’t want war where they live. It might not be here to defend us, but it’s here to defend the countries we live in.
War is a business and a tool to get more power. Rulers and elites cares about money and wealth they don’t give a fuck about the planet or peasants. Just look around yourself
That’s true. But then, if you’re a ruler, the best war is one that your own country isn’t fighting, but you can profit off of. Which is why they’re still incentivized to keep peace in their own countries, but not so much half a planet away.
That’s true. But then, if you’re a ruler, the best war is one that your own country isn’t fighting
If you are a ruler you probably don’t give a fuck about anything that isn’t money and power.
What good is money and power when you have to live in a bunker?
Idk ask them. Billionares or authoritarian rulers are basically addicts who don’t make rational choices. Their “bunker” is probably a palace with servants
That might be hard to grasp but sometimes the interests or rulers and elites do align to some degree with the average person in their country. Most rich and powerful people have a lot of investments that are worth significantly less when unpredictable things such as invasions happen that disrupt trade.
Humanity is literally on the verge of extinction due to global warming and you still believe rulers gives a single shit to anything that isn’t money or power? War is a business.
Extinction would kind of interfere with the whole power and money thing.
Go explain that to the biggest 10 companies in the world. I doubt you have enough money to sit at their table. Stop giving a fuck about everything around you and focus on money and wealth alone and perhaps you will get a chance to talk with their executives.
I was just pointing out a flaw in your reasoning. There are no simple answers to complex questions.
I think it’s simple to see how greedy people try to take as much as they can without thinking of the consequences. Money and power are a drug
I can’t hear you with that imperialist cock brushing against your tonsils.
Every species has weapons embedded into its body, some organisms are specialized members of the species, such as queens and babies, but all species spend a portion of their precious energy budget building weapons.
Given how ruthlessly evolution prunes out anything that doesn’t give an advantage, I think this gives significant information about the nature of existence.
Hostility appears to be as universal as entropy, and just as manageable.
Time to block an instance :p
Time for other instances to defederate. Blocking an instance on the user-level unfortunately isn’t the same as instance-level defederation.
Why? I’d prefer to make the decision on an individual basis, genuinely.
Blocking an instance in the user settings just hides communities from that instance in the community search. Defederating hides all communities, posts, comments and user from that instance. It’s not implemented the same way, probably on purpose, because the Lemmy devs (who btw are the admins of Lemmy.ml and Lemmygrad.ml) know that half the Fediverse would just block them.
Then host your own instance or join a different one. You’re free to do that. Defederating from instances that consistently produce trolls, authoritarian apologists, and mods who pick and choose who is bound by their rules based on their ideology is well within the rights of the instance owner.
Yeah, but that’s like saying make your own anything. Realistically most people don’t want the hassle.
And yet people still do it.
If you need an axe-handle replacing, I’m your man.
i was recently banned from like 5 different ML communities, no clue why, hi ML admin or mod if you could tell me why that would be cool.
It was probably something stupid i did, i never read rules. (in my defense, they’re always the same and i’m never going to follow them lmao) But regardless, silent bans are weird.
Don’t worry, there’s no reason to read the ML rules since they don’t follow them anyway. 90% of bans there have nothing whatsoever to do with the rules.
However, I will say it’s generally good practice to read the rules in other places.
All bans are silent if you never read your inbox 😉
i have combed through my inbox, there is nothing
i would’ve seen it, either im stupid and can’t find it because i don’t know how to use this platform (possibility)
or i never got it, for whatever reason.
I don’t think Lemmy currently has notifications for moderation actions, but there are plans to add them: https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/4572
But this issue depends on other issues
https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/2441
https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/2444ah, that would explain it.
Guess i’ll have to hope i get unbanned and then banned again in a few years to find out why lol.
Well the reasons they provide im the modlog are absolutely ridiculous, it’s mostly something like “Rule 1”, “Rule 2” or something else absolutely stupid.
You’ve provided totally inadequate context while seeking shallow bandwagon validation from idiots. It’s not logical. And, you’ve made a bad faith request. Yet, logic and good faith discussion are prerequisites to the study of philosophy.
The core prerequisite for participation in communist discussion is a comprehensive understanding of Capital. If one demonstrates they didn’t do the reading then they’ll be told to shut the fuck up so as to not interfere with classroom discussion.
I’ve answered your bad faith request. It’s more than you deserve. You should be thankful. But, you’re likely angry. No good deed goes unpunished. I’ll not even see your response.
You’ve provided totally inadequate context while seeking shallow bandwagon validation from idiots. It’s not logical. And, you’ve made a bad faith request. Yet, logic and good faith discussion are prerequisites to the study of philosophy.
i have no more context than anyone else here lmao.
The core prerequisite for participation in communist discussion is a comprehensive understanding of Capital. If one demonstrates they didn’t do the reading then they’ll be told to shut the fuck up so as to not interfere with classroom discussion.
is ml a commie instance? Am i just stupid and didn’t notice this? I just thought it was the other main lemmy instance. It just happened to have a lot of tankies by chance.
you’re also not an ML instance user, so i’m not sure how you’re answering this lmao.
I’ll not even see your response.
ok
I don’t even understand the screenshot. it seems like a ban but reads like someons opinion about their opinion about someone else.
The turquoise text is the comment that op made which prompted a .ml admin to ban them.
The bottom text is the mods reasoning.
Yeah I get that. I think its because the banned comment is sorta sarcastic so its generalizing the opinion of the thing which then with the ban just gets sorta wierd to read. It feels like the not not not of pinochio from shrek.
Honestly, can’t we defederate from that shithole. I don’t see why we need to get a post every other day just to ruin everyone’s day
dont know why lemm.ee the instance am on is federated with hexbears
Can’t, it drives engagement.
Well at least people got educated on left side extremism. I think it puts things in the broader perspective and maybe even someone decided to research these topics some more.
It makes you wonder about communism as a whole. Does it always lead to totalitarianism? Etc
It’s healthy to see all the nut jobs from time to time and reflect on your own steps.
If your views align with the nut jobs for example that makes you wonder hmm something is wrong.Tankies are totalitarian right winners cosplaying as left wingers. Communism hasn’t been in power in Russia since Gorbachev. It’s been nationalists since then. They swung. They swung hard. They kept the totalitarianism and got rid of the leftness. I’d have made largely the opposite choice.
And as many argue, USSR was state capitalism.
They love to pick and choose who to enforce their rules against.
Mine’s not even as interesting. Lemmy.ml rule 4: no ads/spamming. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
So what is nato then?
Real answer or NCD answer?
On your phone, you have an app called Safari/Chrome/Firefox. Try opening it and then typing the 4 letters “nato” into the text box at the top. Once you’ve finished, hit enter.
There you will find the answer.
That was a rethorical question, but thank you!
So, I blocked the instance about a week ago, I don’t feel like I’m missing anything.
I only wonder how the people/government of Mali feel about them using their country’s top-level domain for… Whatever it is they’re using it for.
I dunno enough about Mali to really say, but I’m pretty sure that Lemmy.ml has nothing to do with that country… For them the ML means… Something else entirely.
Well, yeah. Kinda like how most .tv domains don’t really have anything to do with Tuvalu, or .io with the British Indian Ocean Territory, etc.
Yep. It happens a lot. Most of the time it’s benign, fairly neutral websites.
As the other commenter mentioned, youtu.be is another example.
I don’t have a problem with people using TLDs for other countries or anything, my curiosity is whether Mali cares that it’s essentially a site glorifying Marxism–Leninism owned and operated by people who don’t live there, and apart from their glorified ideologies sharing an innitialism with the country code, the two don’t necessarily have any overlap…
Just seems like a PR problem if people take to using your country code TLD to spread propaganda that you disagree with, because your country will be regularly mentioned when discussing the site.
I don’t think anyone here will conflate Lemmy.ml with the people, beliefs or properties of the people of Mali, but all it takes is for one extremist tied to that site, to do something horrible, have a spotlight shined on lemmy.ml, and one over-enthusiastic journalist to mention that .ml is the country specific domain for Mali, and all of a sudden, otherwise ignorant common folk are associating acts of terrorism and violence with your country.
The government of Mali and specifically the department that runs the TLD, has the power to revoke their domain registration… I’m just saying.
It stands for Marxism-Lenininism I aasume.
My understanding is that .ml was cheap (maybe free?) and the Marxist-Leninist thing was a happy coincidence/backronym.
What happened in Libya according to them?
Poor Gaddafi was attacked by the corrupt NATO, to the disgust of the rest of the world (except that it was resolution by the UN security council).
except that it was resolution by the UN security council
You mean the Security Council over which Russia has veto power? That UN Security Council?
Except there is strong evidence that Western powers (predominantly France, the UK and US) created the fiction of Gaddafi being a global supervillain and then used NATO forces to enact regime change in Libya, under the pretext of “preventing civilian casualties”. In fact, the real objective was to secure Libyan oil reserves and open the country up to western markets.
NATO is often used an extension of Western foreign policy. To pretend it is solely a benevolent peace keeper is just as simplistic and naïve as saying that everything the West does is pure evil.
Gaddafi was a supervillian. Almost literally:
.It also wasn’t NATO who directly killed him. His own citizens did, and they weren’t kind about how they did it.
NATO also wants stable oil reserves. Both these things can be true.
He certainly played up to the role, presumably for egotistical reasons, but most of it was sabre rattling bravado. He wasn’t seen as a genuine threat by Western intelligence agencies.
Also, NATO forces didn’t have to kill Gaddafi directly in order to be instrumental to his deposition. Their air strikes were highly effective in destabilizing the regime and empowering opposition forces within Libya. Besides, you only have to look at the history of US intervention in Latin America for many examples of how regime change can be carried out via proxies and rebel groups.
US involvement in South America has been brutal- murder, terrorism, starting civil wars…Societies were torn apart in ways they may never recover from. How can you consider this an option and publicly advocate for it? That’s fucked up
Edit: ITT people downvoting me who don’t want to hear about US operations in South America and also people who like US operations in South America.
Cause it’s whataboutism, not cause it’s wrong.
He certainly played up to the role, presumably for egotistical reasons, but most of it was sabre rattling bravado.
My dude, this ignores like 40 years of him being the most unhinged leader in North Africa. He’s always been a wild card on the global political stage, swinging wildly from befriending revolutionary leftist, and then immediately dumping them for right winged dictators.
The man literally tried to sell surface-to-air missiles to a street gang in Chicago… No one had to make him seem crazy, he was crazy.
Now that doesn’t mean I think the US should have intervened, but I don’t think anyone had to really do any work to make him seem like an insane supervillain.
That also overlooks all the times western powers were friendly with Gaddafi. They didn’t mind him following his ascent to power, nor in the post 9-11 period when the U.S. and European countries restored diplomatic ties with Libya, and Western oil companies re-entered the Libyan oil sector.
In 2007, the UK’s Tony Blair visited Libya to strike up energy deals, and France’s Sarkozy met with Gaddafi for military and economic agreements.
Was Gaddafi a supervillain then too, or did he only become one when his interests were no longer aligned with the Western powers?
That also overlooks all the times western powers were friendly with Gaddafi. They didn’t mind him following his ascent to power, nor in the post 9-11 period when the U.S. and European countries restored diplomatic ties with Libya, and Western oil companies re-entered the Libyan oil sector.
That was my point about him swapping out friends sporadically. Gaddafi had massive swings in political alignment throughout his time as leader of Libya. The reason nato/un could actually make a move on his government without greater political ramifications is because he’s burned every bridge across the political spectrum.
Was Gaddafi a supervillain then too, or did he only become one when his interests were no longer aligned with the Western powers?
Literally yes… Is it that surprising the west would work with a crazy despot that has a bunch of oil?
Gaddafi was so popular among Libyans that in the end they dragged him to the street and raped him with a sword. Allegedly.
You think that couldn’t happen with Biden?
No. He might get assassinated by an individual or a small group of conspirators. He won’t get paraded through the streets while being raped with a sword until he dies. But nice try.
It’s weird that some random German thinks they know what American hillbillies are capable of or actively talk about doing when their memory doesn’t even go back more than three years and they have literally zero knowledge of history or the nature of angry mobs.
Oh, no, wait, that’s not weird, I always forget some people are just average.
Interesting, thanks
During Arab Spring, the West was (naively) hoping that Libyans would rise against Gaddafi and create a democraty. When he saw what was happening, he threatened to a) flood Europe with migrants and b) expose Sarkozy’s illegal campaign funds.
a) made him a political adversary, b) made them launch a military campaign to topple him
lol before I realized what ml meant I made a comment that I thought that communism had never happened yet on earth but that it could one day. You wouldn’t believe the rage and attack from dozens of people who were inconsolable.
They also got mad when I said that there are only a few actual leftists in government in the US. Turns out that everyone is one, dontchano
…what does the ml stand for?
Marxism Leninism
They are the original Lemmy devs which is why I joined there. Horrible mistake, reactionary idiots who project their insecurity on others while thinking that they are the only ones who figured out the secret sauce. Pretty much exactly sovereign citizen level quackery.
look up the word “tankies” to get an idea
To be fair, how do westerners not treat capitalism and democracy with exactly the same weight? I think both sides would have good reason to argue that neither side has figured out the secret sauce as you say.
Not a huge stretch to think both the US and Russia treat their citizens poorly, and neither is a model for the rest of the world.
Because while both are shit, under capitalism I can at least say it’s shit without fear of incarceration or reeducation.
What has capitalism got to do with freedom of speech?
What does Stalin have to do with freedom of speech, because tankies support authocrats and dictators worldwide, but especially are fans of Stalin.
What you talking about bossman?
Your first sentence is not wrong; as I understand Marx’s writing. Essentially it is not possible to go from agrarianism straight to communism without first building an industrial society. That’s how Russia / USSR, China etc don’t “technically” count.
I’m referring more to the fact that Marx envisioned the populace rising up. What really rose in places like Russia and China was a group of self appointed elites who were really just reactionaries.
Tankies get mad because they believe that their utopia already exists and everyone else is an idiot for not ascribing to the same.
They think their utopia already exists
Yet they refuse to go live there
That, again, is another reason why they are not really communist. “Workers of the world unite”
Exactly. My point at that time was to say that it can happen but had not yet.
From my (very limited) understanding of Marx and Engels I suggest your point is correct. I don’t understand how a full-fat, red flag waving comrade could come to any other conclusion… but then I have no dog in this fight and no emotional need to be correct.
sadly there are many stalinists and moaists. the Russian revolution ended when stallin took power.
What really rose in places like Russia and China was a group of self appointed elites who were really just reactionaries.
Are you suggesting the Red Guard didn’t exist and the Long March didn’t happen?
self appointed
What does that mean?
I’ll start over:
Me: self appointed elites did this
You: oh so you’re saying that none of it happened?
It’s a non sequitur, it has nothing to do with the conversation.
Me: self appointed elites did this
Again, you really need to go back and read the history of the Chinese Revolution of you believe this. I might - at a bare minimum - crack open a copy of Fanshen or Life and Death in Shanghai. The idea that the Chinese Civil War and Cultural Revolution were waged by “elites” in any conceivable sense is flatly wrong. It is ahistorical to the point of being the opposite of truth. Like insisting George Washington was a First Nations native person or asserting the French Revolution was orchestrated by the Hapsburgs.
At its ugliest, Chinese revolutionaries were arresting, beating, and executing anyone who might vaguely be defined as “elite”. You were having people fight over whether parents should be executed for being landlords over their children. The opening scene of the Netflix “3 Body Problem” wasn’t all that far from the truth - college professors were, in fact, getting hauled out in front of student committees for adhering to the texts of English and German physicists. The very idea of “elitism” was what was on trial during the hottest years of the revolution.
It’s a non sequitur
You don’t know your history. You’re saying things that are flatly, broadly, and totally incoherent.
That’s how Russia / USSR, China etc don’t “technically” count.
The Lenin government did experiment with a direct transition to full communism, but found - as Marx predicted - that they didn’t enjoy the industrial surplus needed for a post scarcity society. So he rolled back to the New Economic Plan, which Stalin inherited. Stalin went full tilt on industrialization, which upset a lot of agricultural workers and ended with him putting down a revolt in his native Georgia and tendering his resignation as a result.
The party wouldn’t accept the resignation, so Stalin had to come back and win WW2 as a result. Russia avoided the fate of many of the Eastern Bloc states thanks to that rapid industrialization.
After the war standards of living surged, in large part thanks to the Communist model. The kind of communal lifestyle possible under pre-WW conditions wasn’t attractive anymore, so Russians kept industrializing over the next 40 years. And when they couldn’t match the US + Japan speed of development, they fell over in the attempt.
But to say they weren’t “doing Communism”… The quality of life in the Eastern Block improved remarkably quick and access to resources was broad based and egalitarian. The economy was centralized and planned. The proletariat dictated the political agenda.
Certainly, at the time, American economists could tell the difference between the US and Soviet systems, even if they doggedly insisted central banks making private loans was freedom while central committees allocating jobs and resources was tyranny.
It’s only after the USSR collapsed that we got an earful about “Not Real Communism”.
Thanks. I have no reason to doubt any of that. Just to clarify that by “technically” I meant that, as far as I could see, they were not necessarily dialectically-created(?) as per Karl (&Fred’s) original theories. It was more a view about the processes they used rather the outcomes they achieved.
they were not necessarily dialectically-created(?) as per Karl (&Fred’s) original theories
That’s where you can argue that Lenin and Marx ultimately diverged. Trotsky was more of a Marxist hardliner, who insisted Russia simply wasn’t ready for a Soviet state. Stalin felt differently and went so far as to have a bunch of his detractors exiled/killed to prove his point.
The Maoist Revolution in China took a substantially more Trotskyist approach, slow rolling reforms at a speed the majority of the public was willing to accept. Deng proved to be more long termist than Krushchev in his planning.
And I guess history has proven which method was wiser.
