“We saw this through his first term in the presidency when he not only didn’t start any new wars, he took action to de-escalate and prevent wars. The same cannot be said about Kamala Harris. In fact the opposite is true.”
She’s not wrong.
Assassinating an Iranian general and tearing up the non proliferation treaty?
Trump did more drone strikes in his first 2 years than Obama did in 8.
They’re a far-right radical cosplaying as a leftist for propaganda, of course they will deliberately ignore what Donald did.
They’re a far-right radical cosplaying as a leftist for propaganda
No. It’s the Democrats who have become far right.
You wrote you are “leaning towards” Donald. You have zero integrity whatsoever. Same with all the other MAGAs.
You have zero integrity whatsoever.
Integrity is being loyal to my ideals, not to a party that has drifted so far right (in ideology, in rhetoric, in incivility) that they are almost indistinguishable from Republicans.
Your ideals are MAGA, and you do have integrity towards them by posting pro-Donald propaganda. The lack of integrity I am calling out is you pretending to be on the left side of Dems and Repubs. “Dems have drifted too far right therefore I will vote further right than that.” Ok, buddy. We can all see what your motivations are.
“Dems have drifted too far right therefore I will vote further right than that.”
That’s the thing. On the issues I most care about (Israel, immigration), I don’t think the Republicans are further right than the Democrats anymore.
How is the opposite true about Kamala? The quote just ends there. No evidence is given. Either Gabbard is being sloppy or the journalist is.
How is the opposite true about Kamala?
Because she isn’t taking measures to de-escalate and avoid wars. Her rhetoric has been nothing but hawkish (on Hamas, Iran, Ukraine, etc.).
And now, just days after her hawkish speech about supporting Israel, we’re now seeing Israel initiate conflict with Lebanon. Good job, Kamala. And she’s not even president yet.
Oh, so it’s no longer geocide joe eh?
What do you mean?
Because I agreed with something Gabbard said about Harris, you think I no longer oppose Joe Biden?
I think you are a serial spammer, and I’m blocking you lol.
You asked me a question and I responded. That’s not spamming.
This is simultaneously unsurprising and mildly shocking. I don’t understand human nature.
Weird to see a rat crawl on to a sinking ship
The timing of her endorsement was not accidental. Gabbard, a member of the Hawaii National Guard, had earlier gone to Arlington National Cemetery in Virginia with Trump to lay a wreath marking the third anniversary of the deaths of 13 American servicemen at the Abbey Gate of Kabul Airport during the chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan.
I just want to remind people. You’re going to hear about this in the coming weeks. When some dumb fuck tells you that the Afghan withdrawal was a disaster:
-
Ask why the 3 past Presidents kicked the can down the road (rhetorical: It was ALWAYS going to be a disaster on the ground and politically disadvantageous).
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Ask them if they know how many total US service members died under Trump’s term versus Biden’s in Afghanistan. (HINT: The total deaths under Trump is SIXTY-FIVE. The total under Biden: 13)
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Thanks to Biden, ZERO American servicemen have died in 2022, 2023, and 2024 in Afghanistan — the first 0 years since 2001.
Biden’s withdrawal from Afghanistan will be praised in history books as a political sacrifice that ultimately saved more American lives in the long-run.
Biden’s withdrawal from Afghanistan will be praised in history books as a political sacrifice that ultimately saved more American lives in the long-run.
Maybe. But I still hear people insist we could have won Vietnam.
I hear people say the world is flat. Never should have been in Vietnam in the first place.
The ideas don’t come ex nihilo, though. There’s a vested interest among the large and influential pro-war lobbying community to convince policy makers and voters that these endless wars are beneficial, even part of some utopian global project of peace.
“Vietnam was winnable” as an idea persists because it was so profitable. And because Americans really want to believe their military is this unstoppable force, capable of solving any foreign policy problem.
-
Oh, isn’t she the one that’s in some weird religious org that’s more like a cult? I believe I listened to a podcast or two about her when she was making the rounds a couple years ago.
You mean Hinduism?
I would expect nothing less from this Russian agent.
You know, when you accuse every anti-war candidate of being a Russian agent, you’re just making Russia look better than the US.
Why do the Democrats love war so much? Why can’t Democrats be anti-war?
Edit: Reminder that Russia supports Palestinian statehood and has called for the partition of Jerusalem along pre-1967 borders. Has a Democrat ever said that?
You all thought liberalism meant peace. You were wrong. Liberalism is violence.
Take a good look at the world. Liberalism is violence.
Liberals only ever cared about peace in Europe. The rest of the world was an asset to be mined and exploited by whatever violent means necessary.
The funny thing about you fucking morons is you pretend to know shit. We live in the most peaceful era since at least the 1400s.
Because of a decline in wars in Europe.
I already said that liberals care about conflict in Europe. They don’t mind sponsoring conflict elsewhere.
Look at the chart, you idiot.
- Taiping rebellion
- Lopez war
- Armenian genocide
- Vietnam
- Cambodia
- Afghanistan
- Rwanda
Not to mention many more conflicts not explicitly called out in the chart, like the Russo-Japanese war, the umpteen conflicts in Myanmar, India-Pakistan, Korean War, Iran-Iraq, gulf war, Syrian revolution, East Timor… I could go on, but there’s no point. It’s like trying to teach a dog turd to go fetch.
- Vietnam
- Afghanistan
Are you agreeing with me that liberals like to foster foreign wars?
(The Armenian genocide wasn’t even foreign. It was carried out by European liberals within the borders of their trans-continental empire.)
Tulsi Gabbard isn’t anti-war. She explicitly called herself a hawk on the War on Terror. She’s a right-wing opportunist, and like other right wing opportunists (Tucker Carlson, for instance) she might occasionally have a broken clock moment where she criticizes a war, but it’s only because she wants to pivot to starting other wars elsewhere.
Tulsi is also a Zionist. She voted for a ban on BDS and called the protests antisemitic. In fact, she said that they were “puppets” of a “radical islamist organization” and, “I’m concerned about it because leaders in the West are not combating it. … Unfortunately, President Biden seems to be afraid to be called an Islamophobe.” This is similar to her criticisms of Obama for being insufficiently hawkish (in her view) on the War on Terror.
Don’t fall for right-wing grifters trying to take advantage of anti-war sentiment to push their agenda.
She voted for a ban on BDS and called the protests antisemitic. In fact, she said that they were “puppets” of a “radical islamist organization” and, “I’m concerned about it because leaders in the West are not combating it. … Unfortunately, President Biden seems to be afraid to be called an Islamophobe.”
Oh, I didn’t know that. That’s disappointing.
(Not much different from any other US politician, though.)
LOL that ratio. It’s generally considered a landslide victory to secure 65% or more of the vote. You’re hovering around 2.4%. Massacred.
Behold the Democrats. They love war, they love doubling down on war, and anyone who opposes their war agenda must be loudly denouced as a Russian.
None of them even tried to argue that the Democrats value peace (because they can’t, can they?). They just tried to say Russia is worse.
You know, when you accuse every anti-war candidate of being a Russian agent, you’re just making Russia look better than the US.
It’s not about a supposed “anti-war” stance at all, and you trying to shift the conversation to that just makes you look like you don’t want discussions about the fact Russia has been working to destabilize US politics for decades.
You *do *realize Russian interference in US politics has been happening since way before any of this right? Way before even their invasion of Georgia 16 years ago. This isn’t new, and it isn’t about Ukraine or Israel. It’s about recognizing that Russia has been spreading misinformation in the US through things like social media and even our own politicians for decades now. The US military and intelligence communities have been warning about it for just as long, it isn’t new. The fact you want to make it seem like this is somehow new means you either haven’t been paying any attention, or that you support Russian interests.
Given your attempt to shift the conversation away from Russian interference, I’d say the second is correct.
It’s not just the US. It’s “The West” as a whole.
There’s good evidence that Russia was behind the pro-Brexit sentiment in the UK as well.
https://www.csis.org/blogs/brexit-bits-bobs-and-blogs/did-russia-influence-brexit
Supported by the top UK Google searches immediately following the vote:
“What is the EU?”
“What is Brexit?”
There’s good evidence that Russia was behind the pro-Brexit sentiment in the UK as well.
You mean that Russia supported pro-Brexit sentiment, right?
You’re not saying Russia was the source of pro-Brexit sentiment, are you?
Russia has been working to destabilize US politics for decades.
Yeah, probably. Just like the USA tries to influence the population of foreign countries through efforts like Voice of America and Radio Free Asia.
But I think you’re vastly overestimating how much effect Russian propaganda has. If anything is destabilizing democracy, it’s Fox News (which has a reach hundreds of times greater than any Russia bot on Twitter). How can you worry about foreign disinformation when domestic disinformation is right in front of you and radicalizing your parents (and weird cousins).
The only reason we hear so much about Russian disinformation is because the Democrats need a boogeyman to blame their failures on. (Who haven’t the Democrats accused of being Russian agents at this point?)
Don’t bother with this one, folks. I recognize the name and that should tell you enough.
Move along now.
Move along.
Lol they are dumb as fuck but I almost admire their tenacity.
I almost admire their tenacity.
I guess I want to be 100% sure that Democrats are a lost cause before I give up on them.
I stupidly keep hoping Democrats will be rational enough to yield to facts. (Democrats are always saying that they’re the rational side of politics in this country.) But I’m realizing Democrats have become nothing more than BlueMAGA.
Homerian, I’ve been rather patient. We both deserve some level of respect, if only as fellow human beings. So when I ask people to move along it’s because I don’t feel you’ll have your mind or opinions changed by words on an online forum, largely due to how you don’t typically listen rationally.
Among other reasons, most of us who lean Left recognize that there are commonalities and where comparisons can be made between the radicalization of the Right, and some of the more radical positions those on the Left can take. We also know not every position taken on any side is inherently good or bad. For the most part we make judgment calls, which is why there are so many groups with even small differences in opinion not-on-the-Right and why we bicker. It’s a weakness we have as a larger community.
However, we are NOT MAGA. We do not subscribe willfully to a cult without first being tricked, nor do we go out of our way to cause harm. If Harris or Walz or Obama or fucking Abraham Lincoln came back and began yelling about how they will become King and suppress minorities, etc, we would absolutely turn against them. We follow those we follow because right now there aren’t many choices, something we intend to change. We see that this is a step in the right direction, and a big one at that. Despite our honestly very valid hatred of Trump and the modern GOP, we want what’s best for everyone in this country, including those on the Right. This is why we challenge you constantly. Because you’re someone that wants to speak out and we strongly feel that despite your arguments you are not making strong cases, and certainly appear to be working against this greater good we are attempting to establish.
I wouldn’t have spent this time if I don’t feel strongly that Harris-Walz is the right direction. Nor would I stand so often if there wasn’t something very real to lose. I just wish you, and others like you who don’t speak up, would understand that. Y’know?
However, we are NOT MAGA […] we want what’s best for everyone in this country, including those on the Right.
Are you sure? Because, by the way, people in this thread have called me dipship, shithead, idiot, moron, puppet, troll, and told me to fuck off multiple times, invariably with a slew of upvotes.
And why? Because I said I don’t think Gabbard is a Russian asset? They’re making excuses for supporting genocide, but I’m the one who deserves abuse?
And you want me to believe that Democrats aren’t like MAGA? It sure looks like MAGA to me, and you’re telling me to not believe my own eyes. (Maybe easy for you when you’re not the one being abused for the crime of disagreeing with people.)
Maybe the Democrats have become MAGA and you just don’t want to notice it.
By the way, the Democrats didn’t become this way overnight. They were steered this way by their leadership.
The party in general follows the direction of the leaders. The people here are calling Gabbard a Russian agent because Hillary Clinton did that in 2016. The people here are okay with supporting Israel’s genocide because Biden said he supports Israel.
I will be watching over the next two months to see if Harris and Walz can steer the party back to sanity, but so far it’s not looking good.
Homerian, I’ve been rather patient.
You’ve been patient with me?
This is the first time I’ve said anything to you. I haven’t demanded any of your time.
I don’t feel you’ll have your mind or opinions changed by words on an online forum, largely due to how you don’t typically listen rationally.
Look at this thread. I’m being downvoted for correctly pointing out who was president of Ukraine during a particular event. For correctly pointing out when China last ruled Vietnam. For pointing out what “red scare” means.
If I fail to be persuaded by this particular online forum, it’s probably because this particular forum is showing me that it doesn’t care about facts.
We both deserve some level of respect, if only as fellow human beings.
Thank you. I appreciate you saying that, when so many others in this thread have used insults, called me stupid, and accused me of being a troll.
But you’re also being very condescending. (I’m sorry, I don’t know how else to respond to someone saying I “don’t typically listen rationally”.)
However, we are NOT MAGA. We do not subscribe willfully to a cult without first being tricked
Well, neither do the MAGA people. They’ve been tricked. They’re the product of fearmongering and misinformation.
I’ve always hoped that the antidote to that kind of hysteria was facts and information, and I’ve been frustrated that MAGA people (including those in my family) aren’t more receptive to facts. They’ve become skeptical of any information that isn’t presented to them by “their side”.
Now look at this thread. Facts are being downvoted. Anyone who disagrees with the Democrats must be an agent of Russian disinformation and we must distrust what they say (and we’ll yell at them and insult them for good measure). And heaven forbid that anyone criticize Harris. That’s what I mean by the Democrats becoming like MAGA.
If Harris or Walz or Obama or fucking Abraham Lincoln came back and began yelling about how they will become King
Trump didn’t say he would be a King.
Others said that the supreme court ruling made the president like a king. Maybe you’re thinking of that.
Trump also said he would be a dictator on Day 1 (by which he meant that he would pass a lot of laws by executive order on Day 1, not that he would rule like a dictator throughout his term in office). You might be thinking of that.
We follow those we follow because right now there aren’t many choices
Yeah, I understand that. I honestly do.
Like, when I say I’m leaning towards voting Trump, it’s not because I love Trump. I am similarly dealing with a lack of good options.
But backing a particular horse doesn’t mean you have to be uncritical of that horse and attack others who do criticize that horse. That’s where you start to seem like a cult.
Harris has said some good things. (Like, I think her housing initiative is very good.) But she’s also said some worrying things. (I’m currently quite rattled by her staunch pro-Israel speech, which has been followed by Israel attacking Lebanon.) I think the way to advocate for Harris is to point out what you like about her, rather than attacking people who criticize her.
we want what’s best for everyone in this country
I just want the best for people too.
You have though. In other threads, for other reasons. We have interacted. I recently re-read the Odyssey, so your name stuck with me. I know you get commonly downvoted and challenged, which is why I’m trying to be, well…hopefully understanding and not condescending. It’s a fine line to walk and one I’m not sure I’m wise enough to navigate accurately, something you in fact point out. I’m not really sure how to fix that.
The reason I responded is because we aren’t blindly supporting Harris, and many of us are tired of the shit flinging the Right tends to rely on. This is why I approached you here. It isn’t necessarily that we don’t agree with facts you may present, it’s that you appear to us to be attempting to discount a hope we have that Harris and now Walz represents.
You do you. I just see you comment on here often and I feel as if it must be disheartening to constantly be getting downvoted. Challenge the status quo, express unpopular opinions. If you want people to not get defensive though, try to meet them on their level a bit. Unlike MAGA, we are reasonable. We will criticize Harris. It’s just at the point where the alternative is so incredibly, maliciously evil that we, and I, legitimately fear them succeeding. We bite back because for years we were tolerant. Enough is enough.
I don’t know if you’ll listen or understand. I just put myself in your shoes and wanted to express what I feel must be some reasons why you seem to be disagreed with so often. Whatever others might believe, we need people who will speak out. This is just my lame attempt to make your words reach people more clearly.
Gabbard is literally a Russian agent, though. It’s not hyperbole.
They also say that about Jill Stein, and Tucker Carlson, and even Trump himself.
Do you honestly think it’s possible that Russians could have taken over every aspect of American government, politics, and media except the valiant Democrats (because the Democrats are so noble and pure of heart and unable to be blackmailed).
If the Russians really could infiltrate America that thoroughly, then it would be all over already because they’d have the Democrats too.
But it’s just a Democrat scare tactic to get you riled up.
This is the Democrat’s equivalent of Obama is a secret Muslim.
The whole country has been watching too much Manchurian Candidate.
In all this bullshit, there is one kernel of truth I want to address.
Russia hasn’t created anything in the shitstorm they’re inflaming. This bullshit we’re dealing with with all our divisions is home-grown and home-made. If you believe that all our problems are Russian, you’re just setting yourself up with some home-grown xenophobia while you ignore the real problem. And Russia just falling into a sinkhole one day won’t solve the massive number of problems that America has, the same problems that Adolf Hitler schemed to exploit in World War 2.
But what is not gotten here is that Russia HAS exploited these problems, just like Hitler did in World War 2. Russia may not have ‘taken over every aspect of American government, politics, and media’, but they HAVE identified useful idiots and empowered them to disrupt our nation’s well of discourse.
Jill Stein has literally been photographed sitting beside Putin, and she advocates for Pro-Russian positions like withdrawing our aid to Ukraine, while inflaming fake divisions like whether or not to vaccinate against diseases. Likewise with Tucker Carlson and Mr. “I’ll end the war in Ukraine on day one” Trump. We’re not keen on surrendering a nation to an authoritarian dictator like Putin, so he can go oppress gays and transgendered people over there. A Trump win here would definitely enable that, not to mention a very Russian-like playbook of capturing the government’s Civil Service to staff with sycophants, a Unitary Executive that has absolute power without checks and balances from the other branches of government, the total evisceration of the Minority Party’s power (and the relegation of the Dems to that minority status – Permanent Republican Majority, which preceded Trump as a Republican goal), and the codification of oppression of Gays, non-Christians, non-Whites, and women. Dems may be using scare tactics around these truths, but they are truths, and sometimes you just gotta call a spade a spade.
Now, why might we call people like this a Russian troll? Well, let’s stop and think for a moment. Trump is Russia’s favourite candidate, end of line. He’ll put pressure on Ukraine to play ball with giving up the disputed territories, and he’d definitely stop the flow of guns, missiles, bombs, tanks, and planes to Ukraine. While the EU may step up, 1) Russia has plans for the EU, and 2), the EU can’t hope to replace what the biggest spender in military can afford to contribute. Getting the US out of Ukraine’s side will improve Russia’s odds and serve their purpose. We know that Russia is hiring trolls to influence Western thinking – we have empirical evidence of this! It’s part of a massive Russian (and Chinese, and Iranian) cyber plan. We’ve even seen their hardware – massive banks of smartphones hooked up to a central computer run by an operator to post inflaming and discouraging comments.
Now, imagine a comment coming in having ‘concerns’ about how every post that defends Russian assets is ‘Dems falling for scare-mongering’, despite the clear evidence that Gabbard has been under Russia’s thumb, defending Stein’s own Russian connections, and claiming Trump of all people was not under his authoritarian buddy’s thumb contrary to EVERYTHING we’ve seen these past 8+ years? I see the concern, pal, and see it for exactly what it is: a problem that exists only in certain stupid little heads, and I call them out on it.
People, this guy isn’t here to honestly debate us. Keep up the good work calling his bullshit out, though!
Edited: To remove reference to an individual poster.
People, this guy isn’t here to honestly debate us. Keep up the good work calling his bullshit out, though!
You know, I used to do quite a lot of volunteer organizing work for the Democrats when I was younger. I was even on the Christmas card list of a federal senator. (I mean, it’s not a big deal, but I valued it. I held onto those cards until last year.) I spent years of my life on that.
Boy do I regret that now.
If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day…
If you run into assholes all day…
Then you must work in politics.
I keep wondering if he would have sat quietly while Biden commits a genocide in Israel, and I feel certain he wouldn’t have. He was pro-Israel, but not like that.
The party has definitely changed.
Haha this guy… Acting like Putin cares when he happily helped Assad bomb his own people all the while invading a Sovereign nation for imperial ambitions hahahah
when he happily helped Assad bomb his own people
And which side of the Syrian war are you on?
The side that wants to topple Assad and install an intolerant Sunni theocracy?
And which side of the Syrian war are you on?
FSA.
Anything is better than a walking shit-stain who uses chemical weapons against their own citizens, including children. You should be ashamed.
Boy, Russian troops really got fucked up America when they crossed the river in Syria. Got a hefty dose of what a C-130 Gunship can do, huh?
Got a hefty dose of what a C-130 Gunship can do, huh?
I’m not Russian.
Russia supports Palestine because Israel is an ally of the US. If tomorrow the US decided to end it’s alliance with Israel and become allies with Palestine, Russia would suddenly become against Palestine and seek to form an alliance with Israel.
There are few morals in geopolitics and there are no friends, only interests.
This is you trying to deflect from the atrocities of US and Israel by reasoning that every other country is just as amoral.
Whatever you need to tell yourself to sleep at night. God bless America. Greatest nation on Earth. USA. USA.
The same Russia that’s currently trying to invade Ukraine?
The Russia that is trying to liberate the Donbas from Ukrainian oppression, yes.
(Reminder that the Donbas is majority ethnic Russian and has been fighting for independence from Ukraine since 2014, which resulted in them being bombed by their own government.)
(reminder that this is complete bullshit and in fact Hitler used an identical argument when he invaded Poland)
reminder that this is complete bullshit
Reminder that you don’t know what you’re talking about.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cluster-munitions
Yeah when you raise a militia with the help of another country and shoot at the government it tends to shoot back.
Oh look, another Democrat cheering on war crimes.
Ukrainian government forces used cluster munitions in populated areas in Donetsk city in early October 2014, Human Rights Watch said today. The use of cluster munitions in populated areas violates the laws of war due to the indiscriminate nature of the weapon and may amount to war crimes.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cluster-munitions
This is another joke right? Russia has infamously been leveling towns to take territory, specifically targeting civilian shelters, and been caught torturing civilians.
Lmao
I’m sure you’ve heard of Pol Pot and the killing fields of Cambodia.
Did you know who stopped Pol Pot? It was Vietnam. Vietnam, already devastated by a series of wars, undertook a invasion of Cambodia and deposed Pol Pot, partly because Pol Pot was killing ethnic Vietnamese people who lived in Cambodia.
And throughout the whole thing, America condemned Vietnam. America accused Vietnam of being expansionist. America was on Cambodia’s side.
Just a thought.
Couldn’t find anything good to say about Russia that wasn’t a joke line?
I’m saying the Russia/Ukraine situation seems very analogous to the Vietnam/Cambodia situation.
Who were the Ukrainians killing before Russia came to save them?
Ethnic Russians in the Donbas (a region of eastern Ukraine).
https://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/20/world/europe/ukraine-donetsk-residents-struggle/index.html
I agree we need Ukraine to stop Putin.
That was a quick change of subject.
I’m not the one who tried to change the subject.
This dude sees rape and yells “stop resisting”.
This whole thread has reminded me of how utterly amoral the Democrats are.
Between that, and the fact that Harris has already escalated the situation in the Middle East (and she’s not even president yet), and the fact that I quite respect Tulsi Gabbard (for standing up against the Democrat war machine for 8 years and being relentlessly smeared for it), I think I’m leaning towards Trump now.
And here I am having been accused before of “bothside-ism” when I said politicians flip flop-- on party or policy wise. Democrats do it but Republicans do it more. It seems that Lemmy forgot about John Fetterman and Tulsi Gabbard. But I don’t know, maybe because I came from a corrupt country and not surprised of any backstabbing and flip flopping. Maybe it is biased in favour of Democrats that some Lemmy users have ideological blindspot; or maybe it’s a first world problem when people can’t believe politicians turn.
I’ve lived here all my life, and I see it. Unlike the child’s fairy tale noting naked emperors won’t win any popularity contests.
