I have never, ever heard of someone calling for the deportation of Israelis. I think anyone who wants that was probably anti-semitic already and has taken the objectively horrific actions of the IDF as a reason to hate Jewish people in general.
As long as:
Stolen land is given back, and criminals prosecuted,
Sure.
I’m onboard with that, man. Like I said, I’m down with everything up to the very destruction of the Israeli state. It’s just ethnic cleansing and antisemitism I’m opposed to.
So I, a jew who has never even been to Israel, who’s ancestors left centuries ago, am responsible for the state of Israel in any fucking way?
Jewish does not mean Israeli… At all.
Ummm I never said that.
I agree that Jewish does not mean Israeli.
I’m specifically talking about individuals involved in war crimes that they should be held accountable.
With climate change picking up the pace in the last few years, not sure how much longer this area will even be inhabitable.
Imagine if nature does what humankind could not - ends the whole miserable crisis.
I mean sure. Don’t me a racist bigot. Of course.
But let’s not pretend that religion isn’t fueling the atrocities being committed on both sides of the conflict.
Jews, Muslims, and Christians lived in that area together for hundreds of years. This is a political conflict. The fucking Israeli settlers are psychopaths who roll into towns and start setting things on fire. It’s about territory, like all colonialist aggression.
Just gonna leave this here…
Religion does have a nonzero influence, but you’re correct in that this is primarily a political conflict. Zionists murder Muslim and Christian Palestinians alike, and Fatah, a secular resistance movement, was the leading org of the Palestinian side for the longest time.
Religion isn’t fueling it, it is just used as moral justification from both sides. If religion didn’t exist the same thing would happen, but with a different form of moral justification.
It’s a ton of racism too. Darker skinned Jews get all sorts of discrimination, it’s just not as extreme as someone who is Palestinian.
This is what I said and then someone blew up in my face about it when I said this in another thread/post. Why are people so hard headed when it comes to accepting reality I wonder.
If it wasn’t religion it would be race or ideology or language or eye color. You could press a button and eliminate religion from history and all of these problems would still exist.
Israel is the most anti-Jewish state since Nazi Germany, and Palestinians are semitic.
Fuck Israel, genocidal scum!
Unfortunately, the term “antisemitic” no longer has any kind of fixed meaning. I wish that weren’t true, and I think it’s a combination of forces that decided to misuse the word for several decades, that have now led to it being meaningless.
And you might be tempted to tell me what you think it means, and maybe I could agree with you, but when I turn on the TV tomorrow someone else will be using it in a totally different way that’s inconsistent. Actually I’m kidding. I don’t have a TV.
Words that people misuse are still meaningful when the reader and writer both understand the same meaning. I expect you understand OP perfectly well.
Words that people misuse for the sake of propaganda are intentionally misleading, regardless of how any in-group understands it.
Your use of the word “intentionally” is quite confusing to me. Intentionally misleading on whose part? The word’s part, or the in-group’s?
Jewish people and groups around the world need to issue strong rejection of Israel’s actions.
If they don’t, i’m very concerned that Israel’s crimes will fall back on them in the future.
Let’s look at sentiment from different groups
Young and liberal associate them with Israeli genocide.
Young and conservative is full of full on Nazis.
Politically they aren’t worth much being concentrated in liberal strongholds.
When the old folks who are pro Israel go into the grounds dislike will be a rare point of agreement. Not a great position.
Condemnation of Israel’s actions won’t protect Jews around the world.
Do you think it’s safer to support genocide?
It will protect them from the free palestine crowd, but not from anti-semites. Is there a downside though?
The free palestine crowd contains and covers for antisemites among their ranks.
I’m sure contains, though I doubt there’s a complete overlap, not covers for. People who want a literal genocide to end aren’t automatically antisemites or antisemite apologists. Nor are antisemites, especially Trumper antisemites, automatically in favor of Palestine.
Well yeah, obviously. There are anti-semites everywhere. I meant those whose motivations are “free palestine,” which in my estimate is the main motivation of the free palestine crowd when viewed as a whole – not antisemitism. I don’t mean to say that there don’t exist people who are aligned with free-palestine just because they’re anti-semitic. But there’s no protection from those people either way – so, no downside.
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*It’s ok to hate Israel
Yes because it’s a nation which can have objectively bad characteristics and actions.
It’s my understanding that it is occurring naturally on its own, anyways?
A few reporting I’ve heard on Israel describes a state filled with dual-citizenship inhabitants that are used to first-world standard and would rather leave the country than deal with inconveniences. I oversimplify here, but who really wants to live in a genocidal state? Whether you’re on board or not with the genocide, it’s still a massive point of friction with neighbors.
There’s a significant issue of younger Israelis emigrating from Israel due to that friction, though I don’t know the exact numbers.
It’s a few tens of thousands, not a huge number, but significant for a small country. Also not necessarily younger ones. Families are moving out too. Greece is the first destination at the moment.
I think that the fact that youths and families are leaving is a much worse demographic crisis than it might seem at first glance. It’s literally the future of the country that is leaving.
It’s definitely looking dire for Israel, just on a demographic level.
Seems unlikely you’ll get more than half of people leaving “naturally.” Or at least, “naturally” is going to look more and more like “coerced” over the years if progress is made.
I’m not sure I understand what you are implying by
if progress is made. Progress on what, exactly?Progress on ending genocide. If there is progress, then those responsible will be leaving or facing their war crimes. Hopefully both.
Without “if progress is made,” my statement would have read:
“naturally” is going to look more and more like “coerced,”
but I don’t believe this, since my expectation is that the status quo will remain.
So many people on the left for whom jew = Zionist = fascist Israeli. It plays right in the hand of all the actual right-wingers and fascists supporting Israel. Appalling and stupid.
Where are these phantom lefties that think of Jewish = Zionist. Stop making shit up.
Most reasonable people out there know that being Jewish =\ zionists. There are plenty of Jewish people out there that are against Israel. It’s the Israeli government that has tried their best to conflate the two in order to protect their own murderous regime.
Isn’t that the stance of Israel as well? They claim to be the representatives of all jewish people.
specifically the stance of Likud.
So lefties should align their position on the fascist government of Israel ? 🤔
That’s why literally nobody on the left does this. A common and reasonable refrain is that it’s anti-semitic to conflate judaism and zionism.
These imaginary jew=zionist leftists are just a lib fever dream. Zio delusions.
Oh we out here making friends in these comment sections today.
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I really don’t understand people who think a one state solution is possible anymore. I’m not sure if it ever was but certainly at this point it’s not viable.
Nothing is “viable” if you just extrapolate the present, except I guess genocide.
To take a step back, moral ambition and political courage are necessary. If Ireland could reach a Good Friday Agreement, if South Africa could overcome apartheid, so can Palestine/Israel.
A plurinational democratic state with equal rights for all, with a truth and reconciliation process, and with strong international support is the only way the middle east can ever reach peace.
And if we are putting on big boy pants and imagining a better world, why not envision the Mediterranean Union becoming a force for democratization and stabilization allowing the free movement of people throughout the region.
When realism is dystopian, fuck realism and pick utopia. Otherwise, why even live?
Yes but for as brutal as South Africa could be they weren’t in the throes of active genocide. The overwhelming majority of their people weren’t okay with the extermination of entire races. Or at least they didn’t say so out loud, proudly. Expecting them to live in harmony with the people whose blood they are braying for seems foolhardy to me. Expecting those whose children have been murdered in mass in front of them to just politely join hands with the people who celebrated the murder of their children with Glee seems again, foolhardy.
I’m not expecting harmony immediately, I’m advocating for a political project with outside pressure to get to it eventually. Israelis like to talk about deradicalization of the Palestinians, but Israeli society itself needs to be deradicalized.
There is nothing cosmically exceptional about this conflict compared to other conflicts. If Bosnia and Herzegovina can be a society for Bosniak, Serbs and Croats and if Rwanda can find reconciliation after a genocide, so can Palestinians and Israelis.
This: “Why Rwanda is held up as a model for reconciliation, 26 years after genocide” | CBC Radio https://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/why-rwanda-is-held-up-as-a-model-for-reconciliation-26-years-after-genocide-1.5842139
If we can’t imagine this horizon and if we don’t have the courage to work for it, what are we even doing? If all we can imagine is death and hatred, we are creating a self fulfilling prophecy and precluding ever going beyond it. We need moral courage and ambition, that’s all I’m saying.
I mean, the situation is so fucked that saying anything is ‘viable’ at this point is a pipe dream. But I mentioned a one-state solution to emphasize that I’m not asking anyone to be pro-Israel, or even ask that Israel, as a state, should be allowed to continue to exist. My opposition is to advocacy for genocide and ethnic cleansing.
Israel is already a one state solution, it contols all the territory from the river to the sea, and commiting apartheid and genocide.
End apartheid and you have a single state where everyone is free.
One apartheid state is no viable.
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I may be naive but why wouldn’t a UN governed state not be in the best interest for all parties? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_separatum_(Jerusalem)
The Mandate for Palestine was pretty much that and it utterly failed.
„UN governed state“ means occupation and foreign rule. What country wants to send soldiers and police to a country where both major populations will hate you.
Oh geeze, an United Nations governed state is an entirely different can of worms. Though one does wonder what difference there will be between that and just Israel considering the amount of influence they have on the UN.
Though one does wonder what difference there will be between that and just Israel considering the amount of influence they have on the UN.
The only real influence Israel has on the UN is the US veto, though. The UN regularly castigates Israel for its horrors.
United Nation members regular castigate Israel for its Horrors. Official action from the organization as a whole is almost zero. Also the unlimited and overwhelming veto is a massive amount of influence. Enough so that it makes the rest of the UN virtually irrelevant. Also something tells me if for some reason the US change its mind the UK would happily step in and fulfill that role.
Official action from the organization as a whole is almost zero.
… because the UN has very little power as a whole.
Hating on the Israeli government is bound to attract “the other group who has similar things to say and a bit more”. Now suddenly we are all group into the anti-semite barrel by Israel. Master class false dichotomy there.
