cross-posted from: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/32023985
Writing a 100-word email using ChatGPT (GPT-4, latest model) consumes 1 x 500ml bottle of water It uses 140Wh of energy, enough for 7 full charges of an iPhone Pro Max
Good thing we aren’t running out of fresh water or anyth-
https://www.earth.com/news/satellites-reveal-a-sudden-drop-in-global-freshwater-levels/
Fuck.
Yeah it’s not good.
I live in an area with normally lush rivers and lakes, rich forest full of life. We’re going on like day 90 of drought conditions. I can’t even light a candle without starting a fucking forest fire.
/Thirstily looks at Canada.
“Running out of fresh water” narration is a complete lie. I don’t know why, but these articles are implying its like oil that will run out some day. No, fresh water is a manufacturable good. Worst case scenario it gets more expensive as more of it needs to be produced out of salt water ect.
You do understand that the more expensive it gets, the less people can afford it, right? That’s basically the same as running out. Sure, you can desalinate the whole ocean if you want to spend the resources on it. No one is suggesting that there will one day literally be no more fresh water within the foreseeable future. That doesn’t really matter to the farmers in developing countries that can’t afford to irrigate their fields and thus can’t feed the people there.
And then there’s the fact that desalination is a huge environmental disaster.
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/desalination-pours-more-toxic-brine-ocean-previously-thought
the more expensive it gets, the less people can afford it
You know, all these arguments avoid answering the question about how much more expensive water could be. And I suspect the general answer is: not much. Mass producing fresh water is well understood process. It’s also a potential source of sodium for sodium-ion batteries, cheaper alternative to lithium-ion.
And then there’s the fact that desalination is a huge environmental disaster.
I’m fully aware of that - what’s missing there is proper regulation by local governments, preventing excess salinity of water dumped back to the ocean
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Where are you gonna get the energy to desalinate water from? What about areas that are thousands of kilometres from the ocean?
Where are you gonna get the energy to desalinate water from?
From the same sources as with the energy needed to manufacture everything else. The demand for electricity has grown year by year for decades, and we haven’t run out of it.
What about areas that are thousands of kilometres from the ocean?
Regular logistics as with any other good
And how will you supply that energy, while also supplying these absurdly energy intensive LLMs and cutting CO2 emmissions?
Yes, the demand has grown year by year for decades and look at the climate catastrophe it has brought us!
Climate is a separate issue. You can supply green energy, nuclear, or burn fossil fuels. Say what you want, but as far as energy production goes, free market keeps delivering since decades.
And it just happens, that regions suffering from the biggest fresh water deficit also happen to have good conditions for solar energy production.
Climate is a separate issue.
To the energy requirements of our economy? I beg to fucking differ.
And it just happens, that regions suffering from the biggest fresh water deficit also happen to have good conditions for solar energy production.
Well, I guess the droughts are their own fault, then, or what? 🙄
To the energy requirements of our economy? I beg to fucking differ.
Well, yes - because energy can be produced from renewable sources. It isn’t fault of general economy, that the energy sector produces lots of CO2.
The solution isn’t to scale down economy, its to replace fossil fuels with nuclear and renewables
Well, I guess the droughts are their own fault, then, or what?
What???
A big consumer in the fresh water market is agriculture. Whenever articles talk about demand exceeding freshwater supplies, it’s referring to agriculture demand, which usually draw from dams, rivers, or lakes.
City water treatmant plants also usually start with pulling water from a river or water reservoir.
The costs with these consumers suddenly spinning up a saltwater or other advanced purification plant, that could perhaps function without a large freshwater reservoir, is prohibitively expensive. Especially for developing countries, where agriculture could be a large part of the economy
Dumbo I think what people mean is that demand will exceed supply, and as a result lots and lots of people will die of thirst. Water isn’t something anyone can do without.
that demand will exceed supply
You think in terms of fixed supply and fixed manufacturing capacity - but this isn’t the case. Production can be expanded as demand grows
Production can be expanded as demand grows
Lol. You must really think that you’re smarter than the whole field of hydrology and civil engineering, huh?
Overestimate the gains and potential, underestimate the cost.
Typical corporate fads.
So whenever you see people using LLM-generated content, remember to ask them how much clean drinking water it cost.
Thats actually a kind of crazy thought. Everyone has heard of the depressed AI that just shuts itself down upon gaining sentience, but what about the climate AI that shuts itself down because its the best eay to save the climate
It’s not in a closed loop?
No, the water is evaporated as part of the cooling process.
What is this system called? I’d like to read up on it. Maybe there couldnbe regulations that those kind of systems need to use grey or recycle water. Maybe they already are in some data centers too
Another article said they use drinking water because the water comes close to delicate components and grey water can cause issues.
Well that’s a stupid design.
That’s physics. For a closed loop system, the cooling has to be done with air, which is less efficient and that doesn’t work so well in say Texas in summer.
Making it a stupid design, yes.
Edit: putting your massive heat generating data center (beyond what most DCs will do) in support of AI in Texas is stupid.
Closed loop systems absolutely have other options in design, which ive mentioned in another comment chain.
As terrible as they are as companies, meta, apple, and others have made much more appropriate decisions - like locating their big load DCs in cold climates, partnering with the locale to make use of the heat being generated, removing the need for power to be used to perform those tasks - making them not only efficient designs, but compared to putting a DC in Texas like a dipshit (or LA, or NV, or anywhere else with a hot climate), makes the whole thing better for the environment.
Yes, its a stupid design.
It’s not, if your only concern is lowering cost.
That’s how most data center cooling works, afaik.
I am so not an engineer, so maybe this is super stupid, but would there be some way to make it a closed loop by capturing the evaporated water and then letting it travel enough of a distance that it cools off and
liquefiescondenses and ends up in a holding pool?Edit: I told you I was stupid.
Probably expensive+ you’re going to lose mass no matter what because physics don’t give a shit.
It’s actually how a liquid cooled PCs works. The warm liquid goes to a big radiator where fans blow air on the radiator to cool things. But lots of radiators becomes expensive and takes space. You’re talking about a few hundred megawatt of heat.
The space would be a problem for sure, but couldn’t you just use natural condensation to do it with a long enough pipe?
Thats one option, part of strategies for reuse of liquid cooling.
To mention, its more energy efficient than air cooling, so there is a benefit. Smart companies though will also look to reuse strategies like using it for building heat. Larger companies will partner with the town/city to distribute the heat into town-wide systems, like for power generation or distributed heating systems, warm greenhouses, or even to dry out wood pellets for pellet stove systems.
Going long is effectively the same as using radiators though, you’ll just need more pipe to do it without a radiator.
Yes, but you have to account for pressure differences. Steam condensing to water shrinks and causes big pressure changes. It’s a lot easier to either vent it or use liquid everywhere.
You’re describing rain.
Unless you are talking about the entire planet, I’m fairly certain rain is not part of a closed loop cooling system for a server farm.
It improves the efficiency of the data centre because you need less expansive cooling. You need to get rid off the heat somehow.
There tend to be 2 loops, an closed one to the server and an evaporative cooler as a cold side.
I should stop using ai ngl.
I was having a conversation with a friend about this. At some point, the bill is going to come . It’s free, or cheap, to use everyone’s generators, but the bill will come soon. Just like Spotify, Netflix, Prime, etc. The price they’re charging now is just to ensure you get hooked and rely on it before they stay hiking to stay profitable.
That’s not to say anything about LLM collapse, or the economic cost of training new models for 10% improvements.
Its absurd
“uses four times as much water as disclosed”
