You’re going to lecture me about how trying to stop Trump from winning in November was not important, because it is “electoralism?” Please tell me that’s not what you are saying. It sounds like that’s what you are saying.
I am clearly including activities outside of “electoral outcomes” in what I am saying, and don’t need any sanctimonious reminders about them. You can read back, if you missed it. Lecturing me about how electoral outcomes are unimportant, in the wake of what’s happening right now, deserves some kind of every-single-person-in-the-audience-smacking-their-forehead gif.
We’re clearly both capable of having a normal discussion, I think, and have now started to do so. Strong feelings on this type of topic are okay. Just because we’re together doesn’t mean we need to agree 100%. It is ok. I definitely didn’t come here to bicker, and I think neither did the other person. Look at the nature of all our other comments.
Please tell me that’s not what you are saying. It sounds like that’s what you are saying.
Holy shit, that’s not at all what I was saying!
I have no idea why you thought it was, considering that I was speaking in the present tense (i.e. about February, not November), but yeah: the election was incredibly important and the failure of some Americans to comprehend that basic fact resulted in a catastrophe for which I will never, ever forgive them.
Wait – did you think I was the person upthread that you replied to? 'Cause FYI, I’m not.
What my point actually was is that we, COLLECTIVELY, are not doing enough to stop Trump. You, personally, may not need any “sanctimonious reminders,” but the citizenry at large sure as fuck does! When you write things like “we’re fucking trying” – speaking for all of us, not just yourself – don’t you agree that it rings a bit hollow?
You used the word “electoralism” as a pejorative. In my experience, that is associated 100% of the time with being opposed to voting in elections. Also, most of what you described as “not really trying” that I described was referring specifically to trying to stop Trump getting elected.
Stopping Trump from getting elected would have been the easiest and safest way, by far, to stop all this ongoing nightmare from happening. If my interpretation of your reply was wrong, and you’re agreeing that trying to stop Trump from getting elected was incredibly important, and a good thing, then sure. Surely you can understand how I could have gotten some other impression, though.
If you have ideas for what to do now, I’m all ears. Protest sounds good, strikes and boycotts sound good, spreading truth and standing up for the forces of “2 + 2 = 4” sounds good, but that’s about all I can think of that I think will take things in the right direction, and it all doesn’t sound likely to succeed any time soon.
When you write things like “we’re fucking trying” – speaking for all of us, not just yourself – don’t you agree that it rings a bit hollow?
I didn’t mean everyone in the US. A lot of us are though, a lot of them more than me. I get that it could have come across as talking about all the people here and that it’s pretty hollow. That’s why I explicitly said that I get it, and I don’t want a medal or a cookie for any of it, because it’s pretty cold comfort for someone in some other place who wasn’t involved who is now also staring down the barrel. That part of it, I get.
You used the word “electoralism” as a pejorative. In my experience, that is associated 100% of the time with being opposed to voting in elections.
Elections work until a country votes in a dictator who destroys all the checks and balances, and then they stop working. That’s how it went down in the Weimar Republic, that’s how it went down in post-Soviet Russia, and, well, [gestures broadly].
Go check my comment history if you want – before the election, I was very emphatic about the importance of voting for Harris, and fucking kept my mouth shut about even valid criticism of the Democrats that could harm that goal. But it’s not before the election anymore, is it?
Circumstances change, and when they do, our arguments and tactics have to change with them if we want to succeed (or indeed, if we want merely to not be crushed under the heel of jackboots). In February 2025, talking about voting is basically irrelevant, with the sole exception of keeping “pound some fucking sense into the Democratic Party before the midterms” on our to-do list (just on the off chance the process hasn’t been completely subverted by the fascists by then). But everything else on that list has fuck-all to do with elections.
There’s a huge gulf between what we’re doing now (e.g. ranging from complying like Hakeem “what leverage do we actually have” Jeffries, to today’s 24-hour economic boycott), and the sorts of actions that would actually be necessary to defeat the MAGAs. That’s the reality us Americans are living in right now, whether we like it or not. The sooner we get through our stages of grief about it, the better off we’ll be.
If you have ideas for what to do now, I’m all ears. Protest sounds good, strikes and boycotts sound good, spreading truth and standing up for the forces of “2 + 2 = 4” sounds good, but that’s about all I can think of that I think will take things in the right direction, and it all doesn’t sound likely to succeed any time soon.
Let’s see: I’m from lemmy.world, you’re from ponder.cat, and we’re talking in quokk.au… what are the governing ToS and rules, again? I need to figure that out before I can answer.
Maybe I’ll put it this way: if you buy into the narrative you were taught in school about MLK and Gandhi and whatnot, think again. What your teachers didn’t tell you is that “peaceful” movements like theirs only ever succeeded because they were able to present themselves as the moderate alternative to a radical flank, and those radicals were the ones who had done the work of shifting the Overton window.
You’re going to lecture me about how trying to stop Trump from winning in November was not important, because it is “electoralism?” Please tell me that’s not what you are saying. It sounds like that’s what you are saying.
I am clearly including activities outside of “electoral outcomes” in what I am saying, and don’t need any sanctimonious reminders about them. You can read back, if you missed it. Lecturing me about how electoral outcomes are unimportant, in the wake of what’s happening right now, deserves some kind of every-single-person-in-the-audience-smacking-their-forehead gif.
This right here is the problem. Literally a perfect example.
Fucking look at you two. We bicker and fight amongst each other. Please, for the love of God. STOP BICKERING.
If we want anything to change, we are first going to have to accept the fact that we’re all in this together.
We’re clearly both capable of having a normal discussion, I think, and have now started to do so. Strong feelings on this type of topic are okay. Just because we’re together doesn’t mean we need to agree 100%. It is ok. I definitely didn’t come here to bicker, and I think neither did the other person. Look at the nature of all our other comments.
Holy shit, that’s not at all what I was saying!
I have no idea why you thought it was, considering that I was speaking in the present tense (i.e. about February, not November), but yeah: the election was incredibly important and the failure of some Americans to comprehend that basic fact resulted in a catastrophe for which I will never, ever forgive them.
Wait – did you think I was the person upthread that you replied to? 'Cause FYI, I’m not.
What my point actually was is that we, COLLECTIVELY, are not doing enough to stop Trump. You, personally, may not need any “sanctimonious reminders,” but the citizenry at large sure as fuck does! When you write things like “we’re fucking trying” – speaking for all of us, not just yourself – don’t you agree that it rings a bit hollow?
You used the word “electoralism” as a pejorative. In my experience, that is associated 100% of the time with being opposed to voting in elections. Also, most of what you described as “not really trying” that I described was referring specifically to trying to stop Trump getting elected.
Stopping Trump from getting elected would have been the easiest and safest way, by far, to stop all this ongoing nightmare from happening. If my interpretation of your reply was wrong, and you’re agreeing that trying to stop Trump from getting elected was incredibly important, and a good thing, then sure. Surely you can understand how I could have gotten some other impression, though.
If you have ideas for what to do now, I’m all ears. Protest sounds good, strikes and boycotts sound good, spreading truth and standing up for the forces of “2 + 2 = 4” sounds good, but that’s about all I can think of that I think will take things in the right direction, and it all doesn’t sound likely to succeed any time soon.
I didn’t mean everyone in the US. A lot of us are though, a lot of them more than me. I get that it could have come across as talking about all the people here and that it’s pretty hollow. That’s why I explicitly said that I get it, and I don’t want a medal or a cookie for any of it, because it’s pretty cold comfort for someone in some other place who wasn’t involved who is now also staring down the barrel. That part of it, I get.
Elections work until a country votes in a dictator who destroys all the checks and balances, and then they stop working. That’s how it went down in the Weimar Republic, that’s how it went down in post-Soviet Russia, and, well, [gestures broadly].
Go check my comment history if you want – before the election, I was very emphatic about the importance of voting for Harris, and fucking kept my mouth shut about even valid criticism of the Democrats that could harm that goal. But it’s not before the election anymore, is it?
Circumstances change, and when they do, our arguments and tactics have to change with them if we want to succeed (or indeed, if we want merely to not be crushed under the heel of jackboots). In February 2025, talking about voting is basically irrelevant, with the sole exception of keeping “pound some fucking sense into the Democratic Party before the midterms” on our to-do list (just on the off chance the process hasn’t been completely subverted by the fascists by then). But everything else on that list has fuck-all to do with elections.
There’s a huge gulf between what we’re doing now (e.g. ranging from complying like Hakeem “what leverage do we actually have” Jeffries, to today’s 24-hour economic boycott), and the sorts of actions that would actually be necessary to defeat the MAGAs. That’s the reality us Americans are living in right now, whether we like it or not. The sooner we get through our stages of grief about it, the better off we’ll be.
Let’s see: I’m from lemmy.world, you’re from ponder.cat, and we’re talking in quokk.au… what are the governing ToS and rules, again? I need to figure that out before I can answer.
Maybe I’ll put it this way: if you buy into the narrative you were taught in school about MLK and Gandhi and whatnot, think again. What your teachers didn’t tell you is that “peaceful” movements like theirs only ever succeeded because they were able to present themselves as the moderate alternative to a radical flank, and those radicals were the ones who had done the work of shifting the Overton window.