What technical limitations do you see? I feel like other than multireddits this place is basically equal to reddit.

Ya I just got to reddit for specific video game ones now basically. Or specific TV shows.

There’s porn on here. Lemmynsfw.com is actually the second most populous instance irrc (or top 3?). Just got to convince people to post to it. But then we got the same problem of trying to convince people to do that lol.

The tea party was still an astroturfed movement by many of those same rich people that were in power, like the Koch brothers.

Fair. I think this graph of the personal savings rate the last 5 years explains everything. Both Biden and Harris were fighting an uphill battle against these numbers the whole time.

Notice how everyone’s savings goes up during pandemic relief and then tanks as those benefits end and inflation continues to stay high?

Like, this wasn’t “I’m sacrificing the Palestinian people for my own safety”, it was “This is literally the least bad option for Palestine as well.” People in Palestine understood this. But apparently it’s too emotionally charged for some online ‘leftists’.

This is quite hilarious considering the same people you’re defending.

See, every time a Dem loses, I’m told it’s messaging, but every time it’s pointed out what messages the Dem actually put out, it’s drowned out by the fact that both left and right do nothing but beat the drum on whatever they see as the Dem candidate’s weakness regardless of what their strengths are.

I don’t know, maybe something like saying the Palestinian people must be helped to “realize their right to dignity, security, freedom and self-determination” while calling for a ceasefire and saying she “will not be silent” on Gazan suffering?

Oh, wait, that’s right, the selfsame people who said “Calling for a ceasefire is all I need to vote for the Dem candidate” immediately moved their goalposts once it happened, because Palestinian genocide was never the actual issue. They don’t give a single fuck about more deaths or less deaths. They just want to play purity politics, and people giving them asspats for doing so are encouraging this behavior.

“Bullying is when you point out that a strategy is dogshit and senseless, and the more you do it, the more bullying it is.”

I hope not, because that’s what I’ve been saying about the Democratic electoral strategy since before the election lol. I see bullying as more ad hominem attacks, like telling people if they don’t vote for the person arming the person killing their family, you’ll exult in them all dieing or getting deported. Not saying you’ve done that specifically, buts it’s gotten pretty racist in here lately (but not as bad as Reddit at least).

Like, I don’t know what the fuck to tell you. You voted for Harris, so you clearly understand on some level that abstaining is a dogshit answer, but you seem to be bending backwards to accommodate morons who’ve just willfully assisted in the deaths of tens of thousands of people, minimum, for no other reason than their own vanity.

Sorry for the length of all this, I won’t blame you if you skip most of It. Adding spoiler tags so it doesn’t take up too much room in the thread. Honestly, this comment has been a great way to organize my thoughts and feeling on all this, too. It wasn’t when I started, I didn’t mean to subject you and Lemmy to it, I think we’re all just looking for catharsis right now lol.

If Trump is going to establish himself as a dictator, then this kind of group is even more important. Lots of socialist groups have toppled totalitarian leaders, and when they haven’t, it’s usually because of western countries like the US helping the dictator. Of course, it might have to run underground a bit more, but solidarity between various organizations will be extremely important in the upcoming 4 years.

It’s like being Cassandra, the Greek seer who can see the future but is cursed to forever be not believed.

I agree with everything you’re saying except for this part. A lot of voters are very dumb (they mostly voted for Trump and he is planning tariffs that will tank the economy, including for them, for example). But, the Democrats also need to adapt to the voter base and the issues they care about. I think both things can be true lol.

And you were trying to do that by throwing a whole other demographic under the bus. We shouldn’t be surprised this country is okay with genocide and then voted for Trump, because it reveals they were already primed for fascism and atomized enough to leave various groups behind.

For conservatives it’s women, LGBTQ people, and “the elite”, while for liberals it seems to be latino men, Muslims, and the working-class (and kinda trans people because she started getting super vague about helping them near the end of the campaign). The people who right now are like, “Well fuck you guys for voting Trump, I guess it’s every person for themselves, got to look after my own now”, well that’s how lots of people felt before the election when no one was helping them with the genocide, refused to even hear them out, so of course their turnout was depressed.

And they were a tiny minority, btw, if they all voted for Harris she still would’ve lost. More people didn’t turn out because their savings were decreased because their wages haven’t matched the rise in inflation. Even though Biden had helped lower inflation, people still felt left behind, and rather than not listen to them or say they’re wrong, they should’ve empathized with them and said, don’t worry we’ll help out.

We will never go forward if we continue on in this manner instead of having solidarity, but that can never happen if you guys keep interpreting warnings and advice as Russian bots and use that as an opportunity to tear down others, plug your ears, and prop up a genocide. And ya, I voted for Harris, they had some good policies, but it was a messaging thing. They should’ve taken the good economic stuff from their website (stopping price gouging and we’re going to hold companies accountable, the $25,000 to help buy a home thing, fighting pharmacy companies to make medicine affordable, etc), keep abortion in there as it was a strong issue, and maybe add some new stuff (we’ll bring back some pandemic measures to help you buy food and build up your savings again, like child tax credit or loans, because that’s when people remember having the most savings), don’t be afraid to say working-class instead of the middle-class, and then hammered that over and over again. Instead their most repeated talking points were that they’re saving democracy, they’ll reach out to neocon Republicans and put them in the cabinet, have the most lethal army in the world, and keep doing all the same stuff as the current Administration, a presently unpopular one. And abortion, but I think that was actually a good strategy, it just should have been supplemented with the other stuff.

There was also stuff they could’ve said to appease the Muslim voters while still being vague for the pro-genocide people, like “We will uphold the law with regards to selling weapons to allies.” It’s not a 100% yes on the arms embargo but it gives hope to people looking for any lifeline on the Gaza issue. It’s like what she about the trans thing.

But anyway, they didn’t do that, and the signs for this result were there when liberals, like the ones in this very thread, refused to abandon bullying as a strategy, and continued to think they could just gaslight people into thinking it would work after it didn’t work in 2016. Maybe it’ll work in 2028 if we still have democracy then, but only because people will be tired of Trump again by then and they’ll be able to run literally anyone to beat him (like in 2020).

So your solution is less criticism of the party? No wonder the Dems never learn.

Maybe I misinterpreted your comment, but I thought you were saying that Trump basically purposefully leaked the comments to sound tough on Putin, but wasn’t actually planning on following through at all, and instead was planning on actually helping Putin instead but purposefully didn’t leak that part. I compared it to a similar recent situation in the news.

Reminds me of the leaks of when Biden wanted to sound tough on Netanyahu. Trump just wants to sound tough on Putin for a bit.

They’re different people arguing different things lol. The truth is there are a lot of people who want to be heard, so they play up Harris not listening to them and losing because of it. The truth is probably more depressing in that it didn’t matter.

You can’t just assume everyone who didn’t vote is a leftist or did it for Palestine. That’s kinda crazy, and you have no proof of that. You’re just assuming that so you have an excuse to get mad at people who don’t deserve it instead of your precious DNC. More realistically, they’re just non-political people who don’t do research, didn’t care, and weren’t charged enough to go vote by the Dems message and rhetoric, and did they probably have a short as hell memory because they weren’t scared enough of Trump (maybe because he was a known quantity or something). Those people googling if Biden dropped out the night of the election or had no idea RFK dropped out? They’re probably more like them.

TERF Island isn’t much better. You’ll probably have to fight there, too. Once they’re done with fighting trans people, they’ll go back to fighting other LGBTQ people, it happens every time. But I get wanting to leave the US. I’ve been considering it, too. You got to do what’s best for your family.

No leftist thinks “Joe wasn’t that bad”. On his watch Israel has killed an estimated almost 200,000 people (using more accurate figures by the Lancet and people on the ground since their health center basically can’t count anymore since they don’t have the infrastructure), started their initiation of the general’s plan starving out Northern Gaza, made everyone but a doctor flee the last hospital in Northern Gaza, start taking over West Bank, killed a record number of journalists in any conflict ever, kill the people they were negotiating with multiple times, and let them start a war with Lebanon and Iran. Oh and also sent backup to Yemen and put troops in Israel to protect them from retribution since apparently Israel is the only country allowed to defend themselves. Trump will do the same thing, but just talk about it more. It’ll be tough for him to reach those heights, even if he sends more troops in, it’ll just be continuing the logical next step of what Biden was doing.

It’s pretty normal for people not to vote for someone genociding their family. It’s her fault, not the voters. The same way Democrats threw away the votes of the left and Palestinians because they didn’t care if they were being genocided is the same logic the right uses to vote for Trump for the economy despite all the damage he’ll do to women and other minorities. You’re all equally selfish and you don’t have the moral high ground when you’re supporting a genocide and quieting any dissent on it. People tried to say this could lose her the election, but nothing can be the politicians fault, of course, just the voters.

Anyway, turns out it wasn’t the genocide anyway. She lost Michigan because of it probably but it didn’t matter anywhere else, and she lost the election before it was even added. You can add up all the third party votes and it didn’t amount to shit. It was the economy. It always is. People in fucking rural Pennsylvania haven’t been reading hexbear posts or whatever. They just didn’t buy what she was selling.

Or course, if it was the genocide, that just proves what the left was saying all along: she’s got to do better on this issue or she can lose the election, and she’d rather lose than not do a genocide. Turned out she probably would’ve lost either way but still, hopefully the next Democrat candidate will do better, or we can supplant the party with a new one that can run an actual campaign. You can keep doing the bullying thing, but it didn’t work this election, or in 2016, and it won’t work next election either. Stop trying to convince the voters to care about what you want them to care about, and telling them not to care about what you don’t care about, and time to meet them where they are.

I think you’re right that turnout in 2020 was kind of an anomaly from being higher than normal. The stats I found, and this is just what I am seeing referenced so I’ll keep trying to find a source, is that Trump had 4 million less than 2020 but Democrats had 15 million less. So a general depression of turnout but way more from the Democrat’s camp than Trump’s.

But either way, if people are moving right, I think they can also be moved to the left, too. I tend to think that it happens when current times are bad, than they stop wanting to move forward and they look for scapegoats. We just need a more equitable economy that works for everyone, and not just the rich.

That’s exactly what happened. Trump’s turnout was about the same, but Dems turnout was 15 million less than 2020. That shows not that people are going more right ward and voting for Trump, but that Dems turnout was depressed due to apathy or something else.