subversive_dev

Yes.

Socialception

Ahhh, of course, we are going to reach for the “Anti-Zionism = Anti- Semitism” defense. For the record, I make common cause with any Jewish people who oppose colonialism and genocide, like these honest and noble folks: https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/

Interesting, I wonder what happened immediately before the state of Israel declared Independence? Funny how you and the other occupiers never want to talk about the Nakba. Funny how you want to talk about declaring independence but not about displacing hundreds of thousands and destroying or colonizing hundreds of villages and towns.

How about this: return all the land that was taken in the Nakba, then we can stop talking about the destruction of the occupier state. Is that civil and fair enough for you? Or was it always about stealing the land from the beginning?

I don’t really give a shit if resistance fighters check all the right civility boxes. The occupiers were already given most of the land in 1949, but that just wasn’t enough. Fuck genocidal setters. Fuck false equivalence. Fuck apartheid. The PLO has played the civility game all these years, how has that worked out for them? Israel is an evil and corrupt society (the US is too).

assault with intent to annihilate

So we’re just making up serious sounding phrases to try and balance the scales? Which side is bulldozing houses and stealing land? Which side is practicing brutal apartheid? Which side FUCKING BOMBS SCHOOLS AND HOSPITALS?

Jesus fucking Christ get outside of your media bubble every once in awhile.

I suspect that you can’t because you have built a comfortable occupier existence for yourself, so you can’t look at the pile of bodies forming the foundation of your existence.

Now it seems we’ve reached a “verbal argument” where it’s just an argument over definitions, which I’m not interested in.

This is where I’m personally going to leave this:

Some people see the 70 -year genocide of the Palestinians as an unspeakable atrocity that plainly justifies violent and non-violent resistance.

Some people want to center the fears of the occupiers in the discussion, and use that to throw up their hands and shut down any action or solution that isn’t on the occupiers’ terms.

Again, this is an essential distinction. States are not peoples. A national group is the people of a state, not the state itself.

The axis states ceased to exist after world war II. Despite gratuitous bombing by allied forces, the peoples of the states continue to exist, and largely inhabit the same territory.

Seemingly by your argument, land can be seized, people expelled, war crimes committed, but if you have created a state, it would be inherently wrong to dislodge you. I personally don’t regard states as a magic blanket that rules out decolonization by definition.

I certainly don’t grant “Israel has a right to exist” from the jump. What right? From whom? For the record, I don’t think the settlers in the United States have any right over stolen native lands.

I don’t grant that the dissolution of a colonialist theocracy state is the same thing as a genocide. States are not peoples. Decolonization is not genocide.

There would certainly be peace the day after a nuclear apocalypse too

That’s it? Your big trump card is that they call for the destruction of the occupier state? After 70 years of land theft and genocide, wouldn’t you? Would you call for ‘civility’ and ‘dialogue’?

If you want to really squint and generously apply false equivalence, you could compare the decades-long ecocide, driving indigenous people off the land, deprivation of rights, apartheid and more to the possibilities I outlined I guess.

Funny how the supposed theoretical genocide of an extremely militarized society somehow justifies the continued perpetuation of a genocide against an impoverished society and people.

The occupier is always the victim in the eyes of the media they control.

Joe Biden could order a blockade on the single functioning port. Joe Biden’s Treasury department could instantly destroy the occupier economy with sanctions, as they should be doing under US and international law. Joe Biden could signal to the Iranians and Hezbollah that Israel is no longer allowed to operate with impunity.

Don’t make the mistake of confusing pretend impotence for true impotence.

I agree that the entire West is complicit in the genocide.

Regarding “friendly nations,” what happened to make the Iranians unfriendly to the United States?

The solution is not enabling the settlers and ultra-orthodox.

Another option is destroying / blockading the last functioning Zionist port, I expect that will get results real quick. They have decided to build their civilization inspired by the worst excesses of the West, so it will quickly collapse in the absence of endless imports.

Once you turn the grim logic of destroying houses and resource starvation back on the occupiers, you don’t have to keep pretending that they are mysterious, incomprehensible, and immovable.

Was there a no-fly zone and recognition of an independent state in 1949? Why are you treating right-wing genocidists as though they are a force of nature?

Seems like quick work for the armored bulldozers so beloved by the occupiers, if karma is a real thing…

Definitely a false choice, right off the bat.

The USA could impose a no-fly zone based on the 1949 borders.

The settlers could be rightly expelled from the West Bank.

Palestine could be recognized as an independent state.

None of that requires any cooperation from the right-wing death cult currently controlling the occupiers.

None of that requires a genocide, just the long overdue abandonment of illegal settlements.

I wouldn’t personally go with “Jewish Money” as the terminology…😬

That aside, certainly the effect of AIPAC and friends is a part of the pathology. That doesn’t change the fact that Joe Biden could end the genocide anytime he wanted. The Zionist entity cannot survive without US hard power backing.

Ok, deal, let’s do that and find out

You know, I definitely ignored the rest of your comment, that’s fair.

I share your hope that VP Harris won’t be as intransigent in support of the occupiers as Biden.

“According to our simulations that we ran for ourselves, very bad things will happen if we are not in charge. Therefore anything we do to maintain hegemony is justified.”

Forgive me for sleeping on some sort of Orson Scott Card geopolitics fantasy, based on assumptions that other countries will be just as imperialistic as the USA. I’m much more concerned about the current ongoing genocide of the Palestinians that has continued for over 50 years.

I mean, yea. You think the world is some happy go lucky place where people don’t fight each other?

Umm…lol no. I think the world is run by military forces and their obedient governments.

The US dropped two nuclear bombs on civilians in Japan to end a war quickly

Vaporize civilians for peace!

they’d kill civilians again in a heartbeat if it was beneficial to America

If by America you mean imperial warmaking and profits then yes, “they” have, would, and will continue.

The number of civilians that died from the American invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan after 9/11 shows that very clearly. The current Palestinian death toll is less than 10% of that 20 year conflict, and it was done by Americans directly

This point is really confusing but…yay America?

Cuba is being used as a pawn by other countries to threaten the US

Wow what a take. Other countries support Cuba, so the USA gets to perpetuate invasions, assassination attempts, terrorism and eternal economic warfare. The Cubans have no autonomy but also they brought this on themselves.