The US set out specific criteria, such as 350 aid trucks need to enter every day.

This is what makes this especially infuriating. If you wanted to just say it’s fine in a month as long as they “tried,” don’t put a firm number on it. If you do put the number and yet you don’t care whether they actually meet it, you are treating us all with absolute contempt. Like we’re fucking morons who don’t understand how numbers or concrete demands work.

And that’s before we consider the moral implications. Did Biden stop caring whether people are starving in the past month? There is no excuse and I hope he ends up on trial for his role in this before he dies.

Ah so you’re a troll

I agree. It’s just not relevant to this discussion

Why would you assume I thought Trump was going to change anything?

Yes, let’s. Or is he not president anymore? Who the fuck else should we blame

The US is a fucking joke. Biden should be ashamed of himself

It’s been over a year since Israeli government officials announced that they were going to starve Gaza. They hold up aid for no reason. They massacred people collecting flour. They destroyed aid convoys they knew about and coordinated with. They have been doing exactly what they said they would and all America has done is make them pinky swear it would get better.

They will do nothing about this. Not because they will believe the lies Israel tells, but because they fundamentally do not care.

I really didn’t.

Edit: meaning I am not American and if I was I would have voted Harris, not that Trump is not significantly worse.

Over 50% of the god damn country voted for a man who has so many major, should-be career ending flaws we don’t even need to list them anymore. If he kicked a puppy it wouldn’t even make the top 10 worst things he’s done. The democrats lost to the stupidest president of all time, a man who’s entire economic policy revolves around tariffs that he fundamentally doesn’t even understand and who cannot seem to open his mouth without lying.

…and you’re here dunking on the people trying to oppose America’s blatant complicity in genocide. Well, you sure showed them.

“Yes, my candidate is Mussolini, but her opponent is Hitler! Clearly a vote for Mussolini is better than a vote for Hitler!”

Why would you be criticising Mussolini if you didn’t secretly want Hitler to win?! I cannot possibly come up with any other explanation. You must be trying to trick us.

You mean antagonizing European football fans can result in violence?

So it is going to be incredibly expensive to remove immigrants and… err… reduce GDP? This is the man America trusts with the economy because something something tariffs something something eggs

There were undoubtedly some right wing/pro-Russia agitators trying to push the message that they’re “just as bad” and likely some genuine believers saying this too, but the vast majority were not saying this. Most people opposed to Harris/Biden on this issue were simply opposed to the wholesale murder of innocents, and understood that Trump would be worse (e.g. the uncommitted movement said this explicitly).

From my perspective what was much more common was the use of this exact line of reasoning (like your post) to ignore/sideline people with legitimate humanitarian and political concerns. I can speak for myself: I oppose what I see as a genocide and America’s complicity in it chills me to my core. I am not stupid enough to think Trump is better or even the same, and from the others I saw making this argument on Lemmy at least, they didn’t seem to think that either.

In fact to the extent I tried to influence others it was to push the democrats to be better and hopefully actually win the election.

That didn’t stop the accusations, though. I often explicitly wrote that Trump is worse and advocated voting dem, but it didn’t make a difference. In fact just before and after the election, one user was convinced I just hated the democrats and was trying to suppress the vote.

I’m worried that the discussion is a right wing disinformation campaign designed to make us tear each other apart. I cannot find any legitimate politician (even far left ones like Bernie Sanders, AOC, etc. etc) that would have pushed the message of ‘Joe Biden / Kamala is just as bad as Trump on the issue of Gaza’.

So 1) no legitimate politician pushed this message because it is a straw man. I agree with Bernie and AOC.

2. I would argue the disinformation campaign was mainly running in the other direction. Apologists for the democrats’ stance on this acted as though everyone who criticised the democrats was in fact using the straw man argument, and often implied it was a right wing/Russian misinformation campaign.

3. The effectiveness of any genuine right wing agitators on this is dependent on the fact that people like me exist who have a genuinely different position on this than the dems. They stoke the division and let us fight it out. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t push back on any claims that “they’re the same” and it doesn’t mean I should avoid voicing my opposition to genocide. What it means is, unless I respect that you are just opposed to false claims (“they’re the same”) and you respect that I am simply opposed to the killing of children (And not singing from Putin’s hymn sheet), then we will tear each other apart.

Who meme’d this? Where did you hear it? Was it Twitter? TikTok? Reddit? Facebook? Instagram?

It was “memed” on the fucking news, for over a year now. It is not a meme, it is the reality we’ve all been living in which two groups of dishonest actors wanted to influence. The right/agitator influence of “they’re just as bad” and the left/democrat influence of “these people support Trump/work for Putin.” The dems wanted the issue buried so they didn’t have to focus on what was clearly their weakest area. Because they have supported the killing and deep down, I believe they understand that this is morally unconscionable.

Anyway, just my two cents. If you take a step back from the election and just look at this as a disconnected political issue I would hope that we actually pretty much agree. So why would people like me be the enemy?

Maybe Trek was just a few years off on the Bell Riots

Blaming ordinary people achieves nothing. If you want to do that, why not start with the ones who actively voted for Trump?

The blame lies with the democratic party establishment. People were not happy and they decided to offer more of the same. And now they try to turn the blame on the guy struggling to afford his groceries rather than admitting to their failure, and then you fall in line and join the blame game. If they believed Trump was such a threat they could have made sure they had the best candidate they could get, with a primary. But they misled you and tried to make it your responsibility to bolster their shitty centrist candidate and convince everyone to ignore the blood on her hands.

IT DID NOT WORK. They were too pig headed to learn this lesson in 2016. If Trump really does what we fear, it might already be too late to learn it. But if it is not, you need to stop blaming your neighbours and start blaming the fuckers who keep trying to force shit sandwiches down your throat just because the other guy is literally Hitler.

Try standing for something other than just being better than Trump for fuck’s sake.

No worries dude. Sorry if I upset you!

In the future, when you finish your script or just look through my profile, you’ll see we’re on the same side.

the people who beat them into a submissive “it’s all pointless” mentality

I don’t believe that and never did that. All I did is criticise Biden for supporting the genocide and Harris for saying she’d do the same. If you don’t understand why someone might do that despite wanting the democrats to win the election, you really might be too far gone.

The worst thing is someone who is so cynical and unhappy that they can’t tell genuine belief and genuine concern from some evil ploy on behalf of their enemies.

If you don’t believe anything I say I guess there really is no point in this discussion. In any case, look after yourself.

As I said, I’m not American or in America and I still get it. Last time the day Trump got elected and this time so far I have gotten no work done because it’s just so fucking miserable

You’re sitting here a) as someone I 100% blame for this outcome. You got people to stay home, full stop. There’s zero doubt about it.

You are utterly delusional. I never once advocated for not voting or voting for Trump. Never. That’s why you haven’t found an example of me doing it. If by criticising US support for a genocide I am somehow to blame for this outcome I don’t know what to tell you. I will never let that slide and nobody with morals should let it slide either.

I would’ve never considered not voting in the past but here I am wondering what the fucking point is. Burn the US to the ground. It’s happening against my will so why fucking fight it.

Despite that, this is really sad dude. Take a break. Be with your loved ones. I really hope things get better.

It has to do good to be useful. It’s accurate to say the voters are at fault for the outcome of the election, it’s just so obvious it’s downright brain dead and so useless that if analysis stops there it will result in a red 2028 too.

The people who need to improve that we can actually effect change in are the DNC leadership. If you don’t see that you are as blind as the MAGA crowd.

By your weird logic the election results cannot be real because they will result in evil

Yeah when your summary of someone’s logic is this stupid it’s safe to say you have probably misunderstood something.