I feel like this shouldn’t have to be explained, but “Both sides bad” does not equal “Both sides equally bad” or “Both sides the same”
There’s not a leftist on Lemmy who wouldn’t rather be patronized while being stomped on than being cussed at while being murdered.
And yes, I voted. No, it didn’t help. It was moderates who didn’t vote, not leftists. Leftists believe in harm reduction while advocating for harm elimination- the two goals aren’t contradictory. Trump stole the election so it’s all pretty much moot anyway.
By focusing on the fact that Democrats version of bad is better than the Republican version of bad, it only helps to ensure that the Democrats are the best we can hope to achieve. There is nothing wrong in wanting actual good and instead of ‘least bad’.
I don’t live in the US so I don’t have first hand experience but both on lemmy and on reddit it was mostly leftists who were spamming “genocide Biden (without mentioning that trump was even worse)”, something about inflation (like it wasn’t a global issue) and other issues where gop is clearly worse. All as a reason to not vote Democrat.
Calling a genocide a genocide should not be a partisan issue, and if you think we need to temper our discussion of genocide so that your preferred genocider can win a fucking election then you are a genocide denier.
The way for the dems to differentiate themselves on this issue was to stop doing a genocide. They couldn’t do that, and so they enabled the worse option because they were just too horny for killing brown kids.
If mentioning a genocide helped elect Trump, then doing the genocide helped Trump far more, so I don’t know why you’re not attacking the dems for that.
The genocide charge wouldn’t carry any weight if it wasn’t true.
Why is this genocide more important to you as a political football than as, you know, a genocide?
You’re a genocide denier. You’re not denying it’s happening, you’re just denying it’s worth talking about, which is maybe worse.
I’m not denying it’s worth talking about. I’m saying that “not making the genocide even worse” is more important than feeling morally superior on the internet. Some people obviously disagree.
You mean the genocide that Harris said that she was going to support?
It’s always amazing to me that Democrats get mad at people who couldn’t stomach voting for genocide, instead of getting mad at the people who ran a pro-genocide campaign.
Also apparently leftists have to temper our criticism of a genocide by mentioning that Trump is always somehow worse despite there being no evidence that it is materially any worse under him - that’s literally a counterfactual - but somehow this person gets to criticise us for mentioning a genocide without acknowledging that it is actually a genocide.
It’s genocide denial, but they’re not denying it’s happening, they’re just denying that it’s worth talking about, which is maybe worse?
How do you know they were leftists? I don’t know where you are from, but it’s been known that bots and foreign powers have been attempting to influence U.S. elections since at least Trumps first term, and let’s be honest it’s extremely likely that it has been going on for far longer than that.
Biden IS pro genocide, So is Harris, So is Trump. I don’t think it’s bad to point that out. Using it as a reason to vote for a Fascist instead is loony tunes, and as someone who frequents Leftist spaces I can tell you not a single person on reddit or Lemmy proposed any such nonsense who was taken seriously and wasn’t’ immediately down-voted into oblivion.
I think you might be reading too much into that statement. They were saying that the Democrats have failed to differentiate themselves on that specific issue, and that’s an objective fact.
They also said that Trump was the worst option.
I agree with them that we shouldn’t have to keep quiet about what a shit human being politician A is, on the off chance that it might cause a complete idiot to vote for politician B who is just as bad on that issue and worse in just about every other way.
An idiot is going to idiot no matter what you do, and it’s not on us to cover up for liberals and their shit candidates.
If the Democrats want us to stop discussing what trash human beings their candidates are, there is a simple solution for that. I’m sure you can figure out what that is if you think about it.
No matter where you are in the world, this is going to affect you as well. You should be just as mad at the Democrats for putting an unelectable piece of shit up against Trump as I am, not making excuses for them and blaming leftists. We didn’t have Jack shit to do with it.
The DNC had ONE job, put up a candidate that could beat a fascist dictator. That should have been the easiest job in the world.
They fucked up. And now we are all paying for it. Quit trying to shift the blame where it doesn’t belong.
The American people had one job, not to elect the fascist. The DNC should have been able to ran a dirty diaper and win. The American people elected the president, not the DNC. This is on them. (Let alone the fact primary voters decide decided who the candidate was, not the DNC).
And now those voters are on the internet blaming the DNC, the voting machines, the weather and a thousand other things. Nah bros, this one is on you all.
“The American People” are not a monolith, we are actually composed of a diverse group of hundreds of millions of people. Blaming every person in the country for the actions of some is reductive, myopic, and ignorant.
Your uninformed take is about as nuanced as claiming Sophie Scholl was just as responsible for The 3rd Reich as Adolf Hitler because she didn’t do more to stop him.
Who knows, given your utter lack of understanding, you might well believe that.
I’ve already explained in great detail how it actually is the DNC and not the voters who decides who wins the primaries. If your reading comprehension is really that lacking, I’m not sure I can help you with your problem. If you still don’t understand try having an adult explain it to you.
Good Luck with whatever your issue is. Hopefully you are fortunate enough to live somewhere that you have access to good mental health treatment.
Their talking points were the typical that are considered “leftist” in America (and centrist in Europe): universal Healthcare, free education/forgiving student debt, etc. Whether they were bots or not is impossible to say in this day and age.
Well, do you think it’s at all likely or remotely reasonable that someone who was in favor of universal healthcare and free education would prefer a fascist dictator over a center-right Dem? It may not be possible to know for sure, but there certainly are signs.
Were these people in r/politics or on Facebook by any chance? It’s not surprising that the most popular places online to discuss politics would be a prime target for bots and Russians posing as American leftists.
After Biden finally dropped out, I was advocating we try and get anyone other than Harris- someone who might actually win, on the ballot, but that is not the same as saying I would vote for Trump or not Vote.
I can 100% relate to people who didn’t want to vote for Harris, I didn’t want to vote for her, but our election system gives us very little choice in the matter.
I don’t go on Facebook and my Facebook circles weren’t interested in us politics anyway. It was r/politics, news, memes, latestagecapitalism, basically everywhere, both on reddit and lemmy. They are still here, every new gop fuck up asking why democrats didn’t do anything to stop it. They are in this very comment section.
Back then the argument was “I cannot support biden (later Harris) because they are not perfect on issue X”. I do believe people can be so stupid. Maybe they didn’t vote for trump, but definitely actively discouraged people from voting blue.
Maybe they didn’t vote for trump, but definitely actively discouraged people from voting blue.
Again, I’m not sure where you are from but I’m sure its hard to understand what it’s like to be an American right now. People criticize the Democrats because most of us who aren’t Republicans (which lumps all Liberals in with Leftists) want better than the scraps we have been thrown.
Every since I was a kid and able to pay attention to politics, the Democrats have been asking us to vote for someone who is problematic, but better than the alternative. “Vote the lesser of two evils” they say, or you will be handing the country over to a monster. And every election the Dems head more and more to the right. But in the Land of the Free we have no fucking other alternatives. We either accept the shit that is forced upon us, or allow a monster to rule. So no, putting Democrats on blast for ‘not being perfect’ is not the same thing as discouraging people to vote.
How many times did you ask yourself if the comment you are reading might have come from and been upvoted by a bot or foreign agent? Because Americans do have to be vigilant for that. Also, it’s highly likely that republicans reading such a comment would upvote it as well.
every new gop fuck up asking why democrats didn’t do anything to stop it.
You don’t think that its the Democrats job to try and stop the GOP? You don’t think that’s what the people who voted for them want them to do? If you look at those comments chances are they are complaining about the Democrats who are actually not doing anything to try and stop it. We aren’t asking that about the ones who are trying but failing.
I cannot support biden (later Harris) because they are not perfect on issue X
I wish it were as simple as ‘not being perfect’. I would kill to have a party I could vote for that was 99% of the way there. Fuck I’d be happy with 70% honestly. I don’t blame you for not keeping a super close eye on American politics, but Biden is one of the people directly responsible for our disgusting, ill conceived, immoral, ineffective, and harmful ‘War on Drugs’. He’s part of the reason violence is as high as it is. He’s one of the people directly responsible for the insane incarceration rates. He helped make it legal for the cops to LITERALLY steal from Americans. “Not perfect”? Fuck off with that shit.
Harris isn’t any better, as California’s AG she fought the Supreme Court for YEARS to keep human beings locked up in prisons so overcrowded that even the SCOTUS ruled that it was ‘Cruel and Unusual Punishment’ (that’s actually illegal here believe it or not) Why? So she could use those prisoners as literal slave labor (We didn’t get rid of Slavery entirely in the U.S., it’s still ok if the Government does it). She also fought to make ‘Civil Asset Forfeiture’ even easier for the cops (the whole “it’s legal for the cops to steal from you” thing). She’s a ‘Tough on Crime’ right winger and always has been, despite what Fox news has to say about her. She and Biden were perfect- for each other.
As you rightly point out what passes for ‘the left’ in America is considered centrist in Europe, and you want us to what? Thank our lucky stars that the Democrats aren’t literal fascists? Are we supposed to just accept worse and worse out of the DNC until one day we are voting for literal fascists because the alternative is a super-ultra-mega fascist?
I feel you, my point is that the time for fighting for a better democrat candidate is during the primaries (or now), not during an election. Plenty of “leftists” online (and real people like Muslims in Michigan who said it on TV) actively shit talked Harris weeks before the election.
And every time the primaries come, people decide quite decisively that they want the problematic candidate (Clinton, Biden) over the one that would bring change.
And the second topic, why the democrats don’t do anything to stop the gop, two things:
because they fucking can’t, the are in the minority fucking everywhere. Americans had 4 years of trump, the covid debacle, the Capitol assault, the Georgia thing, the criminal convictions, the sexual assaults and the nuclear secrets in the shitter (to name a few), then 4 years of Biden where Israel continued to kill Palestinians as they always have and eggs got expensive and they decided to go back to trump in a landslide. No amount of boring speeches or whatever redditors and lemmings accuse the dems of justify that. The plurality of American voters (almost a majority) are morons with the memory of a goldfish and now they are looking to shift the blame for what they themselves have caused. We voted for trump, but how could we know wlyhat he would do X? (besides him saying “I will do X” repeatedly on TV, X being a part of project 2025 and trump voters wearing t-shirts “X is coming” constantly at rallies). Why arent democrats saving us now, X is all their fault.
why isn’t the question: “why are the Republicans doing it?” in the first place…
Americans don’t believe that inflation is a global issue. They think it’s a new thing called greedflation [because our country and our time period are exceptional].
Lemmy: both said no, so they’re the same!
I feel like this shouldn’t have to be explained, but “Both sides bad” does not equal “Both sides equally bad” or “Both sides the same”
There’s not a leftist on Lemmy who wouldn’t rather be patronized while being stomped on than being cussed at while being murdered.
And yes, I voted. No, it didn’t help. It was moderates who didn’t vote, not leftists. Leftists believe in harm reduction while advocating for harm elimination- the two goals aren’t contradictory. Trump stole the election so it’s all pretty much moot anyway.
By focusing on the fact that Democrats version of bad is better than the Republican version of bad, it only helps to ensure that the Democrats are the best we can hope to achieve. There is nothing wrong in wanting actual good and instead of ‘least bad’.
I don’t live in the US so I don’t have first hand experience but both on lemmy and on reddit it was mostly leftists who were spamming “genocide Biden (without mentioning that trump was even worse)”, something about inflation (like it wasn’t a global issue) and other issues where gop is clearly worse. All as a reason to not vote Democrat.
Calling a genocide a genocide should not be a partisan issue, and if you think we need to temper our discussion of genocide so that your preferred genocider can win a fucking election then you are a genocide denier.
The way for the dems to differentiate themselves on this issue was to stop doing a genocide. They couldn’t do that, and so they enabled the worse option because they were just too horny for killing brown kids.
There we go!
You’re angrier at leftists for correctly calling out the dems’ genocide than you are at the dems for their genocide.
I’m angry at leftists helping elect trump thus creating MORE genocide.
If mentioning a genocide helped elect Trump, then doing the genocide helped Trump far more, so I don’t know why you’re not attacking the dems for that.
The genocide charge wouldn’t carry any weight if it wasn’t true.
Why is this genocide more important to you as a political football than as, you know, a genocide?
You’re a genocide denier. You’re not denying it’s happening, you’re just denying it’s worth talking about, which is maybe worse.
I’m not denying it’s worth talking about. I’m saying that “not making the genocide even worse” is more important than feeling morally superior on the internet. Some people obviously disagree.
You mean the genocide that Harris said that she was going to support?
It’s always amazing to me that Democrats get mad at people who couldn’t stomach voting for genocide, instead of getting mad at the people who ran a pro-genocide campaign.
Also apparently leftists have to temper our criticism of a genocide by mentioning that Trump is always somehow worse despite there being no evidence that it is materially any worse under him - that’s literally a counterfactual - but somehow this person gets to criticise us for mentioning a genocide without acknowledging that it is actually a genocide.
It’s genocide denial, but they’re not denying it’s happening, they’re just denying that it’s worth talking about, which is maybe worse?
Well, enjoy the textbook ethnic cleansing that was announced. On top of the continued genocide. Good job!
How do you know they were leftists? I don’t know where you are from, but it’s been known that bots and foreign powers have been attempting to influence U.S. elections since at least Trumps first term, and let’s be honest it’s extremely likely that it has been going on for far longer than that.
Biden IS pro genocide, So is Harris, So is Trump. I don’t think it’s bad to point that out. Using it as a reason to vote for a Fascist instead is loony tunes, and as someone who frequents Leftist spaces I can tell you not a single person on reddit or Lemmy proposed any such nonsense who was taken seriously and wasn’t’ immediately down-voted into oblivion.
Now you can ask them yourself in the reply to the above comment. Here’s a direct link, if it works: https://programming.dev/comment/17635908
I think you might be reading too much into that statement. They were saying that the Democrats have failed to differentiate themselves on that specific issue, and that’s an objective fact.
They also said that Trump was the worst option.
I agree with them that we shouldn’t have to keep quiet about what a shit human being politician A is, on the off chance that it might cause a complete idiot to vote for politician B who is just as bad on that issue and worse in just about every other way.
An idiot is going to idiot no matter what you do, and it’s not on us to cover up for liberals and their shit candidates.
If the Democrats want us to stop discussing what trash human beings their candidates are, there is a simple solution for that. I’m sure you can figure out what that is if you think about it.
No matter where you are in the world, this is going to affect you as well. You should be just as mad at the Democrats for putting an unelectable piece of shit up against Trump as I am, not making excuses for them and blaming leftists. We didn’t have Jack shit to do with it.
The DNC had ONE job, put up a candidate that could beat a fascist dictator. That should have been the easiest job in the world.
They fucked up. And now we are all paying for it. Quit trying to shift the blame where it doesn’t belong.
The American people had one job, not to elect the fascist. The DNC should have been able to ran a dirty diaper and win. The American people elected the president, not the DNC. This is on them. (Let alone the fact primary voters decide decided who the candidate was, not the DNC).
And now those voters are on the internet blaming the DNC, the voting machines, the weather and a thousand other things. Nah bros, this one is on you all.
“The American People” are not a monolith, we are actually composed of a diverse group of hundreds of millions of people. Blaming every person in the country for the actions of some is reductive, myopic, and ignorant.
Your uninformed take is about as nuanced as claiming Sophie Scholl was just as responsible for The 3rd Reich as Adolf Hitler because she didn’t do more to stop him.
Who knows, given your utter lack of understanding, you might well believe that.
I’ve already explained in great detail how it actually is the DNC and not the voters who decides who wins the primaries. If your reading comprehension is really that lacking, I’m not sure I can help you with your problem. If you still don’t understand try having an adult explain it to you.
Good Luck with whatever your issue is. Hopefully you are fortunate enough to live somewhere that you have access to good mental health treatment.
I’m not blaming “every single individual person”. I’m blaming “the American people”, who elected trump. Twice.
Their talking points were the typical that are considered “leftist” in America (and centrist in Europe): universal Healthcare, free education/forgiving student debt, etc. Whether they were bots or not is impossible to say in this day and age.
Well, do you think it’s at all likely or remotely reasonable that someone who was in favor of universal healthcare and free education would prefer a fascist dictator over a center-right Dem? It may not be possible to know for sure, but there certainly are signs.
Were these people in r/politics or on Facebook by any chance? It’s not surprising that the most popular places online to discuss politics would be a prime target for bots and Russians posing as American leftists.
After Biden finally dropped out, I was advocating we try and get anyone other than Harris- someone who might actually win, on the ballot, but that is not the same as saying I would vote for Trump or not Vote.
I can 100% relate to people who didn’t want to vote for Harris, I didn’t want to vote for her, but our election system gives us very little choice in the matter.
I don’t go on Facebook and my Facebook circles weren’t interested in us politics anyway. It was r/politics, news, memes, latestagecapitalism, basically everywhere, both on reddit and lemmy. They are still here, every new gop fuck up asking why democrats didn’t do anything to stop it. They are in this very comment section.
Back then the argument was “I cannot support biden (later Harris) because they are not perfect on issue X”. I do believe people can be so stupid. Maybe they didn’t vote for trump, but definitely actively discouraged people from voting blue.
Again, I’m not sure where you are from but I’m sure its hard to understand what it’s like to be an American right now. People criticize the Democrats because most of us who aren’t Republicans (which lumps all Liberals in with Leftists) want better than the scraps we have been thrown.
Every since I was a kid and able to pay attention to politics, the Democrats have been asking us to vote for someone who is problematic, but better than the alternative. “Vote the lesser of two evils” they say, or you will be handing the country over to a monster. And every election the Dems head more and more to the right. But in the Land of the Free we have no fucking other alternatives. We either accept the shit that is forced upon us, or allow a monster to rule. So no, putting Democrats on blast for ‘not being perfect’ is not the same thing as discouraging people to vote.
How many times did you ask yourself if the comment you are reading might have come from and been upvoted by a bot or foreign agent? Because Americans do have to be vigilant for that. Also, it’s highly likely that republicans reading such a comment would upvote it as well.
You don’t think that its the Democrats job to try and stop the GOP? You don’t think that’s what the people who voted for them want them to do? If you look at those comments chances are they are complaining about the Democrats who are actually not doing anything to try and stop it. We aren’t asking that about the ones who are trying but failing.
I wish it were as simple as ‘not being perfect’. I would kill to have a party I could vote for that was 99% of the way there. Fuck I’d be happy with 70% honestly. I don’t blame you for not keeping a super close eye on American politics, but Biden is one of the people directly responsible for our disgusting, ill conceived, immoral, ineffective, and harmful ‘War on Drugs’. He’s part of the reason violence is as high as it is. He’s one of the people directly responsible for the insane incarceration rates. He helped make it legal for the cops to LITERALLY steal from Americans. “Not perfect”? Fuck off with that shit.
Harris isn’t any better, as California’s AG she fought the Supreme Court for YEARS to keep human beings locked up in prisons so overcrowded that even the SCOTUS ruled that it was ‘Cruel and Unusual Punishment’ (that’s actually illegal here believe it or not) Why? So she could use those prisoners as literal slave labor (We didn’t get rid of Slavery entirely in the U.S., it’s still ok if the Government does it). She also fought to make ‘Civil Asset Forfeiture’ even easier for the cops (the whole “it’s legal for the cops to steal from you” thing). She’s a ‘Tough on Crime’ right winger and always has been, despite what Fox news has to say about her. She and Biden were perfect- for each other.
As you rightly point out what passes for ‘the left’ in America is considered centrist in Europe, and you want us to what? Thank our lucky stars that the Democrats aren’t literal fascists? Are we supposed to just accept worse and worse out of the DNC until one day we are voting for literal fascists because the alternative is a super-ultra-mega fascist?
I feel you, my point is that the time for fighting for a better democrat candidate is during the primaries (or now), not during an election. Plenty of “leftists” online (and real people like Muslims in Michigan who said it on TV) actively shit talked Harris weeks before the election.
And every time the primaries come, people decide quite decisively that they want the problematic candidate (Clinton, Biden) over the one that would bring change.
And the second topic, why the democrats don’t do anything to stop the gop, two things:
because they fucking can’t, the are in the minority fucking everywhere. Americans had 4 years of trump, the covid debacle, the Capitol assault, the Georgia thing, the criminal convictions, the sexual assaults and the nuclear secrets in the shitter (to name a few), then 4 years of Biden where Israel continued to kill Palestinians as they always have and eggs got expensive and they decided to go back to trump in a landslide. No amount of boring speeches or whatever redditors and lemmings accuse the dems of justify that. The plurality of American voters (almost a majority) are morons with the memory of a goldfish and now they are looking to shift the blame for what they themselves have caused. We voted for trump, but how could we know wlyhat he would do X? (besides him saying “I will do X” repeatedly on TV, X being a part of project 2025 and trump voters wearing t-shirts “X is coming” constantly at rallies). Why arent democrats saving us now, X is all their fault.
why isn’t the question: “why are the Republicans doing it?” in the first place…
Americans don’t believe that inflation is a global issue. They think it’s a new thing called greedflation [because our country and our time period are exceptional].
You’ve posted a good argument to a discussion that we are not currently having in this thread. You may need to take a little break from Lemmy.